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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

891 replies

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter · 19/10/2012 10:05

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women Hmm

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 08/11/2012 17:10

Running,

The previous post is obviously at least in part a response to Rosabud's. The earlier question, though, was general. I am genuinely interested in people's views.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/11/2012 17:08

I agree with your post Rosabud.

Larry, did you address your post to a particular poster?

larrygrylls · 08/11/2012 16:52

"Simple question: Is "objectification" per se bad or is it just bad when it overwhelms other value judgments of a person?

Personally, I think that everyone objectifies sexual partners (or generally anyone of the opposite sex whom they fancy but don't really know). And most youthful relationships are based, at least, on an element of "fancying" which is objectification by another name. I believe that decent human beings are able to value members of the other sex as both fully functioning human beings and sexual objects. And I believe that this binary of sex object/real person is a completely artificial trope which some people assume to be true. "

I posted the above way upthread and no one has chosen to reply. Everyone picks and chooses what they answer.

I think this idea that we can only understand how someone feels about something if we have experienced exactly the same is also not right. How would a man ever converse with a woman on that basis? I think most people have known lots of people of the opposite sex throughout their lives and, from conversations with them, will have some idea of how they feel and what are pertinent issues to them.

And, I do think this idea that a man cannot understand how a woman feels and should not be able to post a perspective only seems to apply one way. Most women on this thread seem to think they have a perfect understanding of the rationale for men's behaviour. How are you able to do that not having experienced the life of a man?

rosabud · 08/11/2012 16:06

I notice that Daddancer picks and chooses the questions and posts he will respnd to. He hasn't answered any of my points. His arguments are illogical and never get to the heart of the issue. He will do anything to go off on a tangent rather than address the issues seriously. The latest example of this is "If you haven't been to a lapdanicng club then you are only making assumptions and can't really know what it's like and so can't argue against them" and "lots of women enjoy going to lapdancing clubs too." There are plenty of reasons why these arguments don't hold water at all but, supposing they did, the obvious answers are: 1) if you can only argue on actual experience then daddancer, as a man, cannot argue about whether or not women have felt objectified because he is not a woman and 2) how come you are to be believed when you say that lots of women go to these clubs but we are not to be believed when we say that many men do not agree with and therefore don't to lapdancing clubs?

I don't think there's much point trying to persuade someone who will not engage with the arguments on an intelligent level. However, I think that one value of this thread has been the excellent replies and reasonings by many on here about women's experiences within a sexist society, of which lapdancing clubs are a very obvious example. Daddancer's many assertions, illogical arguments, personal anecdotes and his whole general tone which is oftem arrogant, dismissive or patronising have only served to strengthen the arguments against him.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/11/2012 14:37

Daddancer: "I haven't denied anyone's bad experiences of LDC's either, i even posted a link with some negatives from a lap dancer. Trouble is a lot of people objecting here haven't even set foot in a lap dancing club, and they just keep making assumptions, instead of making a judgement for themselves."

Daddancer - if you know that lapdancing clubs cause bad experiences for the women working there, how do you justify going to them?

GetAllTheThings · 08/11/2012 14:27

I've explained quite clearly - I don't condemn the dancers. I put the responsibility of lap dancing clubs onto the owners who exploit women and the men who go to them

I know FFS, that is what I've been saying all morning. That you don't hold the dancers responsible. You don't need to explain it again. But if Sabrina asks where I got the idea you feel that I think it's fair enough that I tell her where I gained that opinion without subsequent accusation of goading.

DadDancer · 08/11/2012 14:21

The blame and condemnation should go to the club owners/men who go to them.

and what about the women who go to them? to see blokes or women. Or are you going to deny they exist?

You're not acknowledging the real harm to real women in the clubs, GetAll. The intelligent women contributing to this industry (as you argue) then state that negatives from working there include 'losing all their faith in men' and 'abusive customers.' If a man goes into those clubs, he's condoning this.

Isn't that like saying if someone goes into a pub they are condoning alcohol fueled violence?

runningforthebusinheels · 08/11/2012 14:13

What's even more interesting is that Daddancer came back on with a jokey type post about him stripping on and dancing, but didn't respond to my post:

Daddancer, if you admit that LDCs harm women, how do you justify going to them?

runningforthebusinheels · 08/11/2012 14:04

Yes, Sabina, exactly. Smile

Especially, as the acceptance of a job in a lap dancing club, of a woman's own free will (which I don't dispute) is done within the context of a sexist society. A society that sexually objectifies women in the media, porn, page 3, LDCs etc, and then blames them for their own objectification. Not on. Hmm

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/11/2012 14:01

The thing is, GetAll, there is a difference from having a personal responsibility for something - ie taking a job within a LDC - yes a woman bears the responsibility for that. But I don't think that a woman individually accepting work in a LDC is to blame for lap dancing culture. The blame and condemnation should go to the club owners/men who go to them. That's why I don't condemn the women.

You quite clearly failed to understand that from running's post.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/11/2012 13:58

GetAll - you can be as obtuse as you like.

I've explained quite clearly - I don't condemn the dancers. I put the responsibility of lap dancing clubs onto the owners who exploit women and the men who go to them.

WHy on earth is it so important to you that we hold the women equally culpable?? I'm wondering if it's a twisted 'what about the menz' type argument.

GetAllTheThings · 08/11/2012 13:53

running you've been saying through out the thread the dancers hold no responsibly in all this, that you don't lay any blame on dancers, and you've explained why. Numerous times.

I say this because it's all in this thread and I'm looking at your posts which explain your views on this as I type.

Now you're saying they're not 'equally culpable' .

Those are two different stances no ? Either they bare some responsibility or they don't.

I'm not trying to make out you've said something you haven't , I'm reading your past posts and commenting on what you've actually said.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/11/2012 13:53

GetAll - you're not here to actually discuss this are you - you're playing 'goad the feminists'.

It shows right through this thread.

GetAllTheThings · 08/11/2012 13:41

I'm glad you now see that Sabrina, it was getting a bit tiresome.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/11/2012 13:37

GetAll, I say the women are not equally culpable as the men who go to those clubs - and I say I will not condemn them for it. You want to disagree that's fine. You want to pick apart posts and try and make out I have said something I haven't, then you just make yourself look ignorant.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/11/2012 13:32

Yes, GetAll - when you completely fail to make an argument, there's always straw man arguments and putting words into other peoples' mouths.

GetAllTheThings · 08/11/2012 13:13

Sabrina . Running, you and Somerset has been making the point repeatedly that you will not hold the dancers in LDCs responsible in any way through out the thread because of reasons X,Y and Z.

I can't point out where she said 'it removes all possible responsibility from the women' , because I wasn't directly quoting her.

You see in debates you can take the opinion someone has given and refer to it. Sometimes one directly quotes with the use of speech marks ( which indicate it is a direct quote ) other times you can paraphrase said opinions.

If she's now of the opinion that they're just 'not as culpable' as the men it's a different stance and I'd be interested in hearing why she's changed her position and where she feels women are culpable in the objectification of women as a whole in society......

DadDancer · 08/11/2012 13:01

I don't know why you are defending LDCs so vehemently here. Why don't you take all your clothes off and writhe round a pole in front of a load of women (or gays) who are commenting on your body in a sexual way? And keep smiling and pretending it turns you on? And take a minimum wage for doing so?

Doesn't sound too bad to me. The question is would they want to see me doing that? Grin I don't think i'd look too graceful trying to pull different moves off on the pole. Hmm

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/11/2012 12:16

Can you point out where running says 'it removes all possible responsibility from the women' ?

She said they are not 'equally culpable'.

GetAllTheThings · 08/11/2012 11:52

running

If you feel that the current state of equality in the UK in 2012 is such that it removes all possible responsibility from all women contributing towards objectification for profit I simply cant agree. I guess we're not going to get anywhere on that.

I agree with what Grimble said

Equality means taking personal responsibility for your actions if you have the intellectual and emotional capacity to do so

runningforthebusinheels · 08/11/2012 10:31

GetAll, when you try to find the women as equally culpable in the normalisation of lap dancing culture as men, you are failing to account for the fact that we are all living in an already sexist society. All women have been brought up in a society that, still, to some extent hints that women are the 'sex class' or the 'domestic class'.

How unequal society is still for women is debatable - sure, we've got the vote now, we've got the anti-discrimination and equal pay acts. Yet, somehow women, on average, still get paid less than men. They still tend to do the child rearing and part time/low paid work. There are still only a handful of women in the higher echelons of our government. There is still only a tiny proportion of women in Boardrooms. Women have a way to go before we have true equality in society.

How much equality we've already achieved seems to change on these MN threads, depending on the angle of the argument. I've been told on threads about 'feminism' that the 'war is won, we've got the vote, we've got equality, what are you all still moaning about, blah blah.' But then recently, on a thread about prostitution, I was told by a punter and by a prostitute that 'we're living in a sexist society, I can't see that changing' as a justification for prostitution. Hmm

The woman being paid to take her clothes off in a club is already at a disadvantage in society, just because she's a woman. Add to that the constant barrage of sexual objectification of women in the media, page 3, porn, women being deemed worthless if they are unattractive to men (take the Mary Beard debacle) and then you've got your answer as to why women may look for jobs in the sex industry. It was described by TittyDancer as 'if you can't beat them, join them.'

Therefore, I will absolutely not hold the women working in these clubs, as equally culpable as the club owners, (who are overwhelmingly male, and cashing in on the exploitation of women), or the men that go and flash their cash in these clubs.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/11/2012 09:58

The clubs are objectifying women, therefore any man that goes in a LDC is condoning that objectification.

You're not acknowledging the real harm to real women in the clubs, GetAll. The intelligent women contributing to this industry (as you argue) then state that negatives from working there include 'losing all their faith in men' and 'abusive customers.' If a man goes into those clubs, he's condoning this.

GetAllTheThings · 08/11/2012 09:47

*In response to GATT, perhaps this is the nub of it.

If you think it's as straight-forward and tangible as Man X leaving LDC Y and objectifying - or not - women .......then we're never going to progress this debate.

If you think all LCD punters are good enough to leave their ogling......at the door, and then go out into the world and treat all women as utter equals, then again we're never going to progress this debate.*

Somerset

And of course the third natural scenario in that family that you've not listed whist suggesting I'm not progressing the debate.. is... 'if you think all punters that enter LDC 'Y' objectify women then........... we're never going to progress this debate.

Which is essentially your position.

There is an all prevailing opinion from those who favour a ban, that if you're not backing a banning you must by default think of women as whores, as lesser, and that if you visit these clubs you are a wanker, a prick, a low life, a misogynistic self entitled sub-human and that simply banning LDCs will solve the problem.

You see I don't think it's as simple as that. I think it's far more complicated. I also think that reducing the punters to misogynistic cardboard cut outs, and removing any responsibility at all for intelligent women freely contributing to all this............... doesn't progress the debate.

BelaLugosisShed · 08/11/2012 08:11

Daddancer, you just don't know when to stop digging that hole do you?
Are you really so dense that you think we equate an experience based on mutual attraction/lust (a one night stand) with the inequality and one sided nature of a paid for sexual transaction?
No one is being exploited by a one night stand, your comments are far more telling about your views on women and sexuality than you realise.

TheOriginalLadyFT · 08/11/2012 08:09

Fast loris - you can hardly blame my friend for believing that most men either won't admit to their true feelings or lie; after all, the vast majority of the punters in these clubs lie to their partners/wives about going there. And that's even before you get to the types that come on forums and argue until they are blue in the face that they 'totally like love and respect these women, yeah?' when actually in their heart they know fine well that they are objectifying women and paying for their degradation.

I see daddancer has still not actually answered the question about his daughter dancing in a titty bar. Quelle surprise

No, my friend is not a man - she is a woman that I remember as a funny, bright little girl and later a hard working, out going student with lots of friends of both genders. She now views men with distrust and struggles with depression and anger. She finds it very difficult to believe men she meets in every day life value her for anything other than her sexuality. It is really, really sad

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