Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

It's not an insult, DD. You keep banging on about the "facts" so that's my version of them < shrug >

Well, that's it in a nutshell really Sabrina. Just as Nestle uses images of fat, happy babies and smiling parents to promote baby milk and plastic surgeons use the testimonies of people whose lives have been dramatically and happily changed by having "work done," the "sex industry," has to convey an image that all is right in the garden and dismiss any suggestion of a down side to their "products" if they want to keep the cash flowing in. It's simple really.

And men who consume these products also have a vested interest in "proving" that they are doing nothing wrong, that it's all harmless or even good for the women, for society, for the economy, for freedom, for liberty or whatever other guff they think will con people into thinking it's all tickity boo. Well, of course they do.

keep the insults flowing Happy I am not going to get into a flame war with you, which you appear to be trying to bait me into one.

*closed

it takes a rather stupid, close-minded, invested and entitled person to fall for those myths, IMO

I disagree, DD

There are many lurkers out there who, every time you make another contribution, are confirmed in their opinion that you are a punter who doesn't really care much for the "rights" of women to provide sexual services, but rather to argue that men's rights to buy them trump any pesky "downsides" to the practice

you are just another one of them

I think the club owners and the men who frequent these clubs have to keep up the illusion that the dancers are happy and wellnpaid, that it's all a bit of fun, a bit like a gentleman's club. For the sake of their own self esteem the dancers have to maintain this illusion to a certain extent too- until they leave the business and they generally tell a truer representation of lap dancing as a career.

If this illusion of happy beautiful girls being well paid and enjoying themselves, being bought drinks and performing dances for men, was ever shattered, well then, you'd be left with the dingy reality of lap dancing clubs wouldn't you. And that's not pretty- and is why those that profit from the sex industry go to great lengths to perpetuate the 'happy hooker/lap dancer' myth and the 'its just harmless fun' myth.

^But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

Never know when something you post might lead to a light bulb moment for someone! ^

Now this i do agree with, however as a number of perosnal insults, mocking, and flaming have been posted on here from the anti lap dancing side. I think for the casual on lookers they are not painting a great picture for themselves, and just smacks as throwing the dolly out of the pram or not being able to handle the argument.

This is why these threads are a waste of time. If person A thinks something is morally wrong and damaging to women as a whole, no amount of "facts" (that are all countered if you read another article/citation etc) will change their mind.

That surely depends on the individual. Some people are more amenable to revising their opinions in the light of new information than others.

Happy, I wouldn't go so far as to say posting on these threads or on this board is pointless, even when they are densely populated with members who hold anti-feminist or even just plain old misogynist views. I don't think there is alot of point getting into a textual set to with them. But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

And then there are those of us who are posting, precisely because we don't have a set opinion yet on which side of the debate outweighs the other; so we want to test the boundaries of where various arguments might fall down.

I've certainly changed or developed my views about a wide range of issues after having discussed them on forums and elsewhere.

I know that kritiq (I have had enough pm's from people to thank me for my contributions to realise that is true)

However, I think this board has moved into a different place now. Or maybe it's just me that's done that < shrug >

Bottom line, sausage. We don't live in a black and white world, do we ? Facts are not enough. This statement is forced down my neck every time I pipe up and object to the sex industry on social and moral grounds, so it goes both ways.

I have given up linking to articles and pieces that point out the damage done to women who are now out of the industry. The people who think their right to coerce a woman to dance naked for them with money will never listen to those so what is the point ?

facts/schmacts, fuck 'em all

Happy, I wouldn't go so far as to say posting on these threads or on this board is pointless, even when they are densely populated with members who hold anti-feminist or even just plain old misogynist views. I don't think there is alot of point getting into a textual set to with them. But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

Never know when something you post might lead to a light bulb moment for someone!

Well that is your opinion, as I said previously your entitled to it but think what you base that on... just your opinion and the facts and research point towards the facts that the dancers are happy and you want to deny them choice.

Anyway 2 boys need new shoes, I will be back later and I will challenge opinions based on "facts" that are incorrect.

Sausage, I've thought it through, thanks

Do you want me to change my opinion ?

This is why these threads are a waste of time. If person A thinks something is morally wrong and damaging to women as a whole, no amount of "facts" (that are all countered if you read another article/citation etc) will change their mind.

Pro-sex industry lobbyists (and yes, even the ones that are on the fence but feel impelled to look for the "good" in it) simply look to me like they are only looking out for their own rights. Their "right" to pay women to perform a sexual service, that is.

It is wrong and you will never, ever convince me otherwise.

Yy to morebeta & happyhalloween.

I suspect that this is more likely the reality for most dancers, unfortunately.

I sincerely wish it were true that lap dancing empowered women and made them rich beyond their wildest dreams - but the truth is that it is the (mostly male) club owners who make the big money. Just read the details of what the club charges for alcohol and dances, and what the dancers get (sometimes barely breaking even).

Interestingly, the Windmill owner in the above article loses his cheerful bonhomie very quickly when he finds the reporter talking to the dancers on their own - and even more interesting are the admissions that the money and treatment by these clubs isn't all it's made out to be on these threads.

Possibly even more interesting than that is Oscar Owide's admission that despite his son being involved in his business for the last 25yrs, he doesn't want his grandchildren in his club, or taking over the business in the future: "They're all doing more professional things. They will lead different lives". And that's from the club owner. It's a seedy business.

No myth Liz, the Leeds research mentioned seems to prove it. 87% have some form of higher education and the vast majority are satisfied or highly satisfied with their work. And this is from the largest research of its type. Proof is there it seems [hshock]

Sausage, I don't know if reading back over the entire thread (i've read large amounts of it by the way) would convince me that 'most women' in the sex industry are choosing it. They myth of the happy hooker/lap dancer.

Frans
Sorry to disillusion you. In my experience, only been to one with girls from work years ago, and it was curiosity, but then all we did was giggle with embarrassment/distaste, amd me personally found it really yuck, and a turn off not on.
However, I did get the "vapours", again years ago, when watching on TV the original Chippendales on stage, who were trained dancers/performers, seductively and suggestively moving their bodies in a sinuous way under a gold sheet, I remember .
But what I saw at the club was just in your face vulgarity.

So HHMF you are happy to think for other women and take away their choice because you feel it is right? Think once again point 2 of the Stanford definition of objectification.

If we look at what has happened so far with consultations and how the public opinion has been expressed the majority of people don't share your opinion. Do you believe that you have the right to force your opinion on others? I have always believed everyone has the right of freedom of choice within the law. Some things I don't like but I don't have the right to tell others how to live their lives. I accept other opinions even if I disagree, the only reason I got dragged onto this thread was "facts". I don't expect to change other peoples minds I just want them to think the whole thing through.

Liz if you had of read back over the thread you would have seen that the majority of dancers are highly intelligent and choose to do it for the money. Earning over £1000 a week in cash, bet the tax man doesn't like the deductibles like make up, shoes, undies and dresses.

And the only male strip night I went to most of younger ladies spent the evening grabbing the male strippers. Certainly behaviour if it was the other way round that would get a man ejected out of a club. My neighbour has a friend who is a dancer and her husband is a male dancer I will have to try and get his opinion. I imagine it would add something to the discussion. Certainly the more I talk to my neighbour (and this thread has encouraged me to do so more) the more I learn.

I think sending young men and women off to fight wars and get their legs blown off for fuck-all is wrong. I think sweatshops are wrong. I think the consumer greed for more and more electronic shit to be made that harms someone somewhere is wrong. Etc.

I can feel all those things, all at the same time, because I have enough neural connections in my brain to do so. Also not a valid argument to say "but what about X, Y and Z ?"

I think male strippers are objectifying, and wrong, and tacky. Also.

Not a valid point, if you were trying to make one, Frans

My point being, I think a man who strips has chosen it more than a woman who may have felt cornered into the same decision.

So, might be lynched for this opinion but I think it's not the same.

Also, men's work (unqualified work) is so much better paid. Bouncers at the nightclub for example earn more than the cleaners who work at the club.

I think they find it amusing and they may recognise the men are fitter than average but it's not like they really actually get 'turned on' looking at a waxed buffed man who has offered himself up to be a cabaret on a hens' night, for 20 bucks an hour. I don't know , maybe that's just me. But I'm not saying it wouldn't be amusing or a good laugh but it wouldn't fulfil any sexual need/fantasy at all.