Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

Strangely enough Sausage, my DD managed to do her Maths degree without having to resort to Lapdancing, as did all of her friends - saying that shutting off the choice of Stripping will impact on female higher education is ridiculous.
Of the hundreds of young women my DD knew at University, only one did work even remotely similar to working in a LDC - she was a waitress at Hooters.
My DD could earn £200 (in tips) for working 3 x 5 hour shifts in an expensive restaurant, waiting tables, fully covered up, no need to degrade herself for the likes of Larry and DadDancer.

I'm actually quite concerned about the claims on this thread that the opening of a lap dancing club actually caused sexual and violent crime to fall in Newquay and Portsmouth.

The Portsmouth argument has been satisfactorily put to bed by Linerunner (thanks Linerunner) - that rather than it being the opening of a lap dancing club causing a decrease in crime by 95%, it was a joint operation by police and pub/club owners in the area which was responsible for this.

Newquay - well a bit of googling tells me that the police in Newquay attributed particular rapes and sexual assaults in the area to the opening of a lap dancing club.

An individual - with a website 'Newquay Voice' then apparently has done a FOI Req - and has said that sexual assaults actually fell since the opening of the LDC. Firstly, I would really like to see the figures/ more information on this before the claim 'Lap dancing clubs reduce sexual crime' becomes set in stone.

Secondly - I'm more disturbed than words can say by the implication on this thread, that to reduce sexual crime, councils have a responsibility to open SEV's for men. WHat on earth does that say about the society we live in? That men are voracious sexual animals that need to be given satisfactory sexual entertainment by women in SEV's or they will go out and sexually attack women?? That men need to be sexually placated in paid establishments like LDCs or they will commit sex crimes?? I'm aghast at the thought.

Somerset low level harassment as you point out takes place in night clubs and everywhere so how would banning anything change that?

Yes, this is my point.

As long as lap dancing is encouraged and seen as acceptable, then this feeds into a culture which objectifies women and creates an environment where women experience abuse and assault on low, medium and high levels on a daily basis.

Loo at the music videos that my boys are exposed to. Think there are better things in society to change than LDCs.

Yeah, not great are they? All part and parcel of the same culture. I agree, I think music videos and such like need addressing to and you'll certainly see me arguing the toss on those threads. This is a thread about lap dancing clubs, though - hence the focus of this particular discussion. Odd to assume I/we are only concerend with this particular issue...?

All of your points have been pretty much addressed by everyone else, but...

To me objectification is everyday and is about men objectifying women, men objectifying men, women objectifying women and women objectifying men. Strange how everyone only concentrates on one aspect and the other 3 are okay.

No, not strange at all. Women as a gender have a long and glorious tradition of being the oppressed sex. Women don't hold the balance of power in society, so their objectification is of greater concern.

And remembering that in objectification you are denying the the dancer's agency and objectifying them yourself. And by denying that they have opinions you are silencing them which is another form of objectification. But I have said this now 4 times and you are now denying my agency and therefore objectifying me.

Who's denying your opinion? [hhmm] You're as entitled to express it as anyone - just as we're all entitled to agree or disagree.

As always with these threads, I tend to come away thinking that if you're not really a holistic, strategic, bigger-picture thinker, it can be easy to get bogged down in the face-value detail.

Personally - I do not want to deny the individual dancer's agency, to use your words. I am far more interested on the impact of such choices on women as a whole, rather than the individual. Lap dancing may, arguably, be all sweetness and light and 'empowering' for an individual woman, but the wider impact on all women is of more concern to me. To paraphrase - a small step forward for an individual woman, but a giant leap backwards for womenkind.

I'd prefer to live in a society that doesn't reduce women to the sex class, that doesn't create an environment where women feel the need to make the choice to become a stripper to make their way in life. I don't see men rushing out to make such choices. I don't see 'highly intelligent' men with law degrees and the like choosing to take their clothes off for a crowd's gratification. In short, I want to live in a world where women are faced with the same choices men are free to make. Or more pertinently, not* to have to make choices that men don't have to make.

*As an aside, I've noticed that lap dancaers have repeatedly been described as 'highly intelligent' on this thread, pretty much always by the 'pro' side. As if this is somehow a suprise. Why wouldn't they be intelligent? Why does the 'highly' need to be added. It just comes across as very patronising to me.

I read that the public consultations show that people living in the areas are overwhelmingly against lap dancing clubs. Including in Newquay.

Sausage, you (and daddancer) have such a very strange and twisted view of objectification that I really don't know how to answer, but I'll give it a go.

When people are speaking out against lap dancing clubs for reasons of them objectifying women, they are talking about sexual objectification . They are talking about women being seen as a pair of tits, a fuck toy, and nothing else. This is pretty much what lap dancing clubs do to the women who work there - regardless of the fact that some men say they go to 'buy drinks' and 'chat' to women.

Yes, men can be objectified too - who said they can't be? - but we are talking lap dancing clubs on this thread, and men are hardly being objectified in lap dancing clubs, are they? Maybe seen as mugs and walking wallets - yes - but that's not the same as being sexually objectified.

As far as I am aware, you do not objectify someone by disagreeing with them on an internet forum.

I think all objectification is bad, personally, but coupled with structural oppression it is particularly harmful.

So objectification is only bad if it is man on woman because it causes violence? Now we have seen that there is no causal link between LDCs and violent abuse so not sure that the theory holds up. Violent sexual behaviour is much more likely around night clubs. But hey the truth doesn't matter if it spoils a theory.

True Bela with a double dip recession if these women get the jobs what happens to the people who would have got them otherwise? And according to Labour MP Rachel Reeves women are being hit hardest. But the biggest hit could be the number of women who stop studying for their degrees, as (from the small data set) one third of dancers are financing their way through high education/degree. So now we get less educated women? Not sure if they would all give up there studies but I would guess quite a lot would.

And if we talk real life a vocal minority can shout very loud but so far the public consultations have been heavily against closing the clubs.

Anyway as amusing as this has been real life calls, will be back tomorrow to pick up (half term and something to keep my brain active).

I do like the word "sausage" though, it's my pet name for my DH [hwink]

These 10,000 women who would lose their lucrative jobs if LDCs were to close .
Presumably they could all get alternative employment quite easily, after all, they're mainly Law/Medical students funding their degrees by a bit of prancing around with their tops off, aren't they?
Oh, wait......

'To me objectification is everyday and is about men objectifying women, men objectifying men, women objectifying women and women objectifying men. Strange how everyone only concentrates on one aspect and the other 3 are okay.'

It's not strange, it's to do with the structural nature of sexism under the patriarchy that puts men and women in a hierarchical relationship. To objectify a group which is worse off politically, economically and when it comes to power and violence, is more harmful than objectifying a group that is in a better position than you.

HappyHalloween

Sausage - one ill in society (sexist music videos) doesn't justify another ill in society (lap dancing clubs).

sausage SAUSAGE sausage sausage

if I say it enough times in enough different ways, it ceases to have any meaning

sausage, somehow you have successfully completely devalued the verb "to objectify"

that takes some doing [hsmile]

Sausage, disagreeing with you isn't the same as objectifying you.

'Loo at the music videos that my boys are exposed to. Think there are better things in society to change than LDCs.'

Ah, the old 'you can only do one thing at a time' fallacy. We are women. We can multitask.

You have some very odd ideas on objectification, sausage.

'Denying my agency and therefore objectifying me'

Somerset low level harassment as you point out takes place in night clubs and everywhere so how would banning anything change that? Loo at the music videos that my boys are exposed to. Think there are better things in society to change than LDCs.

To me objectification is everyday and is about men objectifying women, men objectifying men, women objectifying women and women objectifying men. Strange how everyone only concentrates on one aspect and the other 3 are okay. And remembering that in objectification you are denying the the dancer's agency and objectifying them yourself. And by denying that they have opinions you are silencing them which is another form of objectification. But I have said this now 4 times and you are now denying my agency and therefore objectifying me.

SomersetONeil I completely agree with your point.

The world is not an equal place for women - and it is not made more equal by job opportunities for women being of the 'take your clothes off for men' variety.

How men can enjoy entering into a cash transaction with a woman at these clubs is completely beyond me. I've met many men who think that to do so is the height of sadness and desperation. Not all men think lap dancing clubs are cool - but men who do frequent such establishments prefer to think that they are normal and that 'most' men got to them. Otherwise they'd have to face the truth - that they are creeps.

runningforthebusinheels and TunipTheHollowVegemalLantern

Thanks for the answers.

I should add - when I opened that thread, I was all set to say, 'of course YABU, I've never been sexually absued'. But then I recalled the countless low-level assaults I've experienced in my lifetime, and had to admit, that yes, most women have been. They're just so common and to-be-expected as to hardly register on the radar.

You, yourself have been. It's the very rare woman indeed that can say with her hand on her heart that she's never, ever experienced any sort of unwelcome, unwanted and un-invited attention that has caused her to feel, at best, uncomfortable.

sausageggbacon - you didn't actually read the thread I linked to, did you?

The entire point of that thread is that it doesn't just cover standard sexual abuse and DV, and is not about abusive men per se.

The thread covers the whole gamut, and a huge chunk of it is about every day, 'low level' harassment - the sort that most women accept as part and parcel of being a woman, and take for granted. Groping, touching, being felt-up in clubs, wolf-whistled at in the street, leered at, made to feel scared and uncomfortable. And of course, a whole lot worse. Men who feel entitled to do this in an entirely casual way, without a second thought. Women who have to put up with it and have become almost immune to it in many way.

Seriously - why don't you actually read the thread. And then try to tell me that we don't live in a society that objectifies women, and that lap dancing clubs and the like don't feed directly into that.

GetAllTheThings.

I judge the men who go to these clubs as they are the ones creating the demand for lap dancing clubs.

They're the ones who feel entitled to pay a woman to walk around with no top on or mash her boobs in his face. (Or, pay a club to get a woman to mash her boobs into a face who then pays her a paltry percentage).

They're the ones who are treating women like walking boobs and bum - and most definitely not treating women as equals.

By frequenting these clubs they're endorsing it.

And of course, because I am a consummate man-hater.

GetAll - I judge the men who go there because of precisely this point. If the majority are there of their own free will and there is a minority who aren't (or who are there as the result of drugs or alcohol addiction or are underage), there is no way for the men who go to the clubs to know which is which. So they are willing to risk that they are paying to take part in exploitation.

I judge the men who go to these clubs.

Can I ask you why ? I mean the majority of lap dancers are taking their clothes off of their own free will for fairly good money. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads, there is no mystery about what the job entails.

So if the main damage being caused by lap dancing is in it's negative impact in terms of objectification of women do these women not bear some responsibility in your opinion ?

I love the idea that the dancers keep their jobs secret because of feminists. Because feminists are entirely to blame for the culture of shame surrounding the sex industry, despite the fact sex workers have been stigmatised and badly treated since several millennia before feminism even started.

Right Sabrina! I know, let's just get brothels and a lap dancing clubs open on every corner of every city - imagine all the employment opportunities available for those lucky, lucky women!