Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

Tunip, I am not keen to find a woman to blame. I am more interested in why you are only looking at 50 per cent of the equation. I can see blame on both sides, men and women. Can you?

SEVs (Sexual Entertainment Venues) include lap dancing clubs, sex shops and sex cinemas, that require a license from the local council.

They also need a thing called Planning Permission.

I am in touch with someone on Portsmouth City Council over whether the digital recording of the deputations and the Police evidence at the Licensing Policy Committee Meeting (re: SEVs and the 'nil cap' issue) is available, and if it is allowed to be published in the public domain.

If the answer is yes, then I imagine that other Councils' debates are similarly available.

She's not the one doing the exploiting though is she? Why are you so keen to find a woman to blame for the harm that men do?

'...I'm not interested in getting to the roots of why men go to these places. I'm more bothered about getting them to stop going there...'

If you know why, you have more chance of stopping them.

Tunip - and what names do you call the dancers? Dancer A might have no idea whether dancer B is trafficked, even if A herself is not. What is more, she might not care.

And tbh I'm not interested in getting to the roots of why men go to these places. I'm more bothered about getting them to stop going there and exploiting women.

The fact that there is a proportion of dancers at these places who do not consider themselves exploited is neither here nor there. The fact is that there are women in LDCs who are being abused, and this has got to stop.

I consider any man who goes to one of these venues when he has no way of knowing (which he doesn't, given that trafficking remains a problem) that the women he is paying to leer over is there of her own free will, to be a prick, a wanker and a lowlife. I don't think that is unreasonable.

sexual entertainment venue

SEV = Sexual Encounter Venue ( I think )

I still don't see how the demand can be taken away, if it is a legal transaction between two adult parties. I have missed another TLA though - what is an SEV? Is it the same as an LDC?

Thanks Grimbletart. Some food for thought there.

It's just that I've never seen anyone on these threads ( including this one ) ever round on lap dancers / strippers / sex workers for contributing towards the objectification of women by their own free will, whilst 'prick' , 'wanker' and 'low life' are fairly liberally banded about in relation to men who visit these clubs.

Or indeed in any thread that touches on objectification.

It doesn't really seem to help get to the roots of the matter, or why men go there other than to say that they are 'entitled'.

I think you mean "men who like to visit these establishments" - my DH is a man and he can see the harm done to all women by the existence of SEVs.
Every other week there are posts by women on the relationships boards who are distressed to learn that their partners have gone to strip clubs, they are definitely being harmed by their partners visiting them.

I think it would be very difficult to persuade men that harm is done to women by visiting these establishments - especially if the women themselves don't see any harm. I am not sure therefore how anybody could 'take away the demand'.

I would never condemn those women from backgrounds that have made them vulnerable and who have low self-esteem that consequently causes them to think that their body is their only asset, but unlike some posters here I don't hesitate to wonder why non-abused, intelligent, well educated women do it when they could use their education and intelligence in more positive ways and in careers, which while not instantly paying a lot of money, have better long term prospects.

After all, even if lap dancers earn the healthy sums that some posters have mentioned (though none seem that particularly high earning to me) their careers in lap dancing will be relatively short. The punters will lose interest when gravity takes over and by that time these women's educated peers will be well advanced in proper careers with proper prospects.

My personal view is that these women don't actually care what message they are giving - being a feminist myself does not mean I support women come what may. Or maybe they have mistakenly fallen for the myth of empowerment and simply like parting idiots with more money then sense from their money. Or maybe they are exhibitionists looking for voyeurs to appreciate them. Who knows?

But LDC are like any other business insofar as they fail when demand dries up, not the supply. Take the tobacco industry (as a similar anti-social activity) as an example. The reason it turned to China, the East and Africa to hook new addicts was because the demand was falling in the West and the industry could no longer survive on Western European consumption - too little demand.

Take away the demand and the LPD would fail in the same way. Take away supply and punters would simply turn their attention to other areas of the sex trade and exploit other types of sex workers.

enimead - I guess it is the same question. If it is harming women, why don't women stop? I still don't see an answer.

" why not just ask all women dancers to withdraw their services? If they understood the damage that is described on here, wouldn't they stop? "

Isn't that an argument that could be used for women who use their body in any situation to make money? Page 3 models, those women who get parade around boxing rings / Formula 1 / anything where appearance is the only thing that counts?

It's selling your body because men like to see the female body and will pay for it - they're not paying for the person within the body but are paying for the body as an object. Some women are perfectly happy to do this as they know men will pay.

But then that leads men to see women as objects - and some women to be perfectly happy to sell themselves as an object.

How do you break the cycle? You rarely see men selling their body for women - in female sports, you don't see men in hardly any clothes parading around with the scores, you don't see men sprawled over a sofa enticing a woman to buy it?

namechangeguy

Yes. I just wonder if it's a taboo question, or if it's glaringly obvious and I'm just being thick.

I mean yes I can understand in a context where women are forced to do this stuff by men, but surely if they do it of their own free will they bare as much responsibility as clients, if not more, if one believes it denigrates and objectifies women as a class.

I did ask a long time ago and I was just asked if I'd like my daughter doing this. It didn't really answer the question.

I'd genuinely like to know how this fits into the arguments.

I did ask a similar point to GetAllTheThings' earlier - why not just ask all women dancers to withdraw their services? If they understood the damage that is described on here, wouldn't they stop?

a woman choosing a career as a lapdancer, or in porn, is affecting all women and how they are perceived.

I'm going to dip my toe back in because I really don't understand the rational here.

If lap dancers ( and strippers, and sex workers ) are damaging to all women why aren't you describing them in derogatory terms and telling them to stop working if they do so of their own free will ?

I understand the argument about men in clubs, just not why all the anger is aimed only at the clients.

Can't help picturing DD in a LDC and finding himself suddenly staring at his daughter wiggling her boobs and vulva in his face.....wonder what he would do. Sit there with a red face, exit quickly or 'enjoy' his daughter's nakedness.

Everyone is someone's daughter [sad}

He thinks I'm Anyfucker, oh that's priceless.

NCG, a woman choosing an abortion is affecting only herself (and her partner if she has one) , its a purely private matter - a woman choosing a career as a lapdancer, or in porn, is affecting all women and how they are perceived.
I bet DadDancer wouldn't want his daughter, or sister, or mother, to be behind a curtain in a club grinding her breasts or vulva on sweaty business men or drunken stag party attendees for £20 a time, for all his talk of the dancers making intelligent choices and being seen as autonomous human beings.

Somebody makes a point on another thread about denying a woman the right to earn a living however they see fit (within the law). If feminism thinks a woman has the right to control her own body over an issue such as abortion, how can feminism also seek to control her right to shake her thang on a stage? Forget the male audience and what they want for a minute - from the dancer's standpoint, how can you grant her autonomy over abortion and not over lap-dancing?

But Daddancer has trouble with the meaning of words - they mean what he wants them to mean.