Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

Sorry - here is the link - www.poledancingschool.com/

I have no interest in these establishments. Close them all. I do enjoy reading certain ideologues desperately trying to pile all the blame into one corner though, defying logic as they go.

Let's assume that within the SEV/LDC environment, there are two groups of women - those there of their own free will, and those who are forced. Those who are there freely are able to do so because the industry is underpinned by those who are forced. If they opened their eyes and gave two moral hoots, they would leave. But they don't, because like the men who frequent these places, they choose to ignore exploitation and misery of (other) women.

You should not pile all the blame at the door of these women, but neither should you give them a free pass because they are women. They are exploiters too. I can see this because I am not driven by an ideology that forces me to see that exploitation is only carried out by men. At what point does radical feminism accept that women have some responsibility for their own actions?

Here's a bit of fun;

[http://www.poledancingschool.com/]

Founded by and run by a woman. Anyone fancy enrolling their daughter?

Do I get a prize for bringing up the first 'what about the womenz' cry in MN history?

Yeah yeah Larry. You keep on with your lectures - I'm sure we all find them sooo enlightening.

Gorillas and the animal kingdom? When we're talking about lap dancing clubs? Way to muddy the waters.

"Men who go them are low lives Larry."

"Larry are you going to start talking about Gorillas having sex in front of each other again? Not sure I can stomach your pseudo-science 'animal kingdom' spiel a second time."

As opposed to your brilliantly logical take on things...

I do find the suggestion that there is no abuse because customers aren't meant to touch a bit naive.
From one dancer's experiences, quoted in this BBC article:
'Danns, 28, regrets that her time as a lap dancer made her a harder, more cynical person. She admits she was initially seduced by the notion that modern lap dancing was a safe, secure expression of female empowerment.
In fact, she says, her experience was defined by the damage it gradually inflicted to her self-esteem and the regular verbal, and sometimes physical abuse she received from customers.'

Still Larry, I suppose this time at least it's a discussion thread - rather than the last time when you were posting your evo-psych stuff on a thread in Relationships by a woman who was posting because she was desperately upset about her husband visiting a lap dance club.

The list of deputations, Sausage, seems to show only one local resident speaking in favour of the SEVs. The other deputing Portsmouth residents appear to be speaking against.

The deputations in favour all apppear to have been from 'the industry' IYSWIM.

Media images andf the comments underneath also appear to suggest that a local resident in favour of the SEVs was holding a sign and possibly wearing a t-shirt saying 'Save Our Jobs', as are members of staff from one of the SEVs. These signs and t-shirts seem to have been made specially for the protest outside the meeting and for wearing in the public gallery, and at the deputation table, inside the meeting.

And 'Wiggle' hailed the meeting as a 'victory' in the local press, so I wouldn't be too worried about them.

All this is discernible by looking at the websites of the city council and local news media sources.

Larry are you going to start talking about Gorillas having sex in front of each other again? Not sure I can stomach your pseudo-science 'animal kingdom' spiel a second time.

Polaris Project - trafficking into strip clubs in the US

No, UK police failing to deal with a problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, Sausageeggbacon.

Men who go them are low lives Larry.

Kim,

Have explained a thousand times. Have not been for about 12 years. Last time I went was stag do. Before that, probably went about 1-2 times per annum for 5-10 years. Mostly I either went at the end of stag nights or as a client of interdealer brokers (I worked in the financial markets). It was somewhere to go after a decent meal out and very much part of that culture at the time.

I have no real beef for them and would not give two hoots if they all closed tomorrow. What I find offensive is the idea that all men who go are somehow low lives. And the fact that most who post that are not even willing to enter a meaningful dialogue with men to discuss the motivations without slagging them off and getting very personal.

"Everyone has to make their way in the world - and given that the world is constructed under patriarchal terms - we often have to make our own negotiations with the patriarchy to get by. For example, I wear make-up and shave my legs. I'm not brave enough to make the stand against it - to be the make-up-free, hairy-legged women, because of all the judgement I'd get if I did that. Judgement that men don't get and can't understand."

This is one lens through which you can choose to view the World, and far from the only one.

For me, women try to make themselves more appealing to men in order to attract a mate, in the same way as plenty of animals do in the animal kingdom. And vice versa.

If you live in a free country like most of the Western World, you will attract remarkably little "judgment" if you choose not to shave your legs or not wear make up. I know plenty of women who do neither and no one really notices. To pretend you need "bravery" to do either of the above diminishes the meaning of real bravery. This idea of women having to make negotiations with the patriarchy in order to "get by" in the UK is really self pitying rot...and most women would have very little sympathy with that perspective (and certainly not in the instances that you have sited).

Well, let's be honest, until a certain point in time, there were no LDCs, and guess what, no men went to them. Someone saw potential demand, started a business, advertised, branded etc. Just like any other business. It is a bit like fast food (not that I am saying that is great). No one knew they wanted a processed yucky burger topped with soggy lettuce and overfatty mayonnaise until McDs opened its doors in the UK.

There I was sitting back and enjoying the futility of the discussion and lol and behold claims are made again about trafficking and abuse. Interesting the during Pentameter and Pentameter 2 no SEVs came up on the radar. With the resource thrown into the projects and all the claims about SEVs not one was raided. Sort of says no trafficking. The SEVs are big money businesses why would they need trafficked women when there are seemingly lots of women that are happy to work in the clubs.

So this claim of abuse? Who is abusing the dancers? Customers can't touch so at worst I would guess there is some low level verbal comments from drunk men. Betting anyone who has worked on a helpline has had worse and a lot more often.

Certainly as we have seen there seems to be no link between venues and sexual abuse outside.

LineRunner Portsmouth is definitely interesting as in the deputations local residents have commented on the fact that the security and CCTV has helped bring crime down.

So it comes down to is objectification bad? Men and women fantasise all the time so if it is bad no one should be allowed a fantasy. And I will try and stop myself AGAIN from coming back, but statements made with no facts to back them up do get under my skin.

GetAllTeThimgs - If lap dancers ( and strippers, and sex workers ) are damaging to all women why aren't you describing them in derogatory terms and telling them to stop working if they do so of their own free will ?

The fact that you even ask this question is very telling.

Why don't feminists, and indeed most women, describe lap dancers and other sex workers in derogatory terms? Well, because we recognise that they're people with feelings and concerns and needs and worries, with choices to make. Not objects.

We also don't know which ones are there of their own free will, which have 'chosen' to be there to fund, say, a drug habit, or 'choose' it as the only way to make some easy money even though they might hate it. And which ones absolutely have not chosen to be there at all. We have no idea, so how can we possibly talk about them all in derogatory terms? The men frequenting these establishments have no such concerns about the women and don't care which of these camps they fall into.

I'd have thought this was obvious - to me it's very telling that it's clearly not

Everyone has to make their way in the world - and given that the world is constructed under patriarchal terms - we often have to make our own negotiations with the patriarchy to get by. For example, I wear make-up and shave my legs. I'm not brave enough to make the stand against it - to be the make-up-free, hairy-legged women, because of all the judgement I'd get if I did that. Judgement that men don't get and can't understand.

These women make choices, too. I'm not going to condemn them for those choices - it would be hypocritical of me to do so.

Of course...but where there is demand and no supply, you equally don't have a business. However much people might want to eat a roasted dinosaur, you just ain't going to have a dinosaur restaurant.

Unless of course you are thinking that there are all these poor lickle men being tempted into lap dancing clubs by evil naked women?

That is a seriously flawed argument Larry - no doubt you'd like to think of it as chicken and egg - but in business without the demand, the supply dries up pretty quickly.

Running,

And without the women, there would be no clubs. Chicken and egg. And what about women who manage or own LDC?

I agree Tunip - always happens on threads like this - people try and find reasons to blame women for the bad behaviour of men.

GetAllTheThings - The root of the matter is the demand for these clubs by men. It is the demand that keeps these clubs open - otherwise there would just be a lot of naked girls sitting around doing nothing in an empty club.

Trying to find a women to blame for men's bad behaviour is exactly what you are doing.

As I said before, Namechangeguy, it is the men who are doing the exploiting.

It is not women who are prepared to risk paying to watch women strip who are there because they have drug problems/histories of childhood abuse or because they are trafficked and effectively enslaved. It is men.

Women are not 50% of the equation when the harm is committed by men.