Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

Perhaps she wants to keep the wankers front and centre where there's at least a semblance of control and monitoring

Yes I saw that quote elsewhere , but it was quite brief, I'd like to see her expand on that.

It's clear that she's in agreement with people on anti side of this thread about the damage, but she obviously differs on the issue of banning.

I've said I agree to a degree about the negative effects caused by LDCs, but I feel uncomfortable with the whole scale banning of them, hence wanting to hear her expand on that a bit.

Like I said I should probably buy her book, I was just curious as to whether anyone here had already read it.

There you go GetAll.

Sitting at a kitchen table in the cozy London flat, the 27-year-old insists she is not calling for a ban, because it would not challenge the underlying sexist culture that allows them to flourish. But she does want to explode some myths. In her strong Liverpool accent she says: ?People think it?s charming and cheeky ? men chasing topless girls around like in a Carry On film.? Instead, she says, there is a ruthless competition ? with women resorting to masturbating for the customers or ignoring no-touching rules to earn enough to pay the fees. Others tell of security staff and managers turning a blind eye to men groping, insulting or even threatening the women.

Looks like she's in agreement with a lot of us on this thread who want to tackle the demand for these clubs, and the sexist culture in which they exist.

It is indeed. And she's pretty scathing about the industry, her book was written in collaboration with OBJECT but she's against banning.

Given the nature of this thread I think it's a worth exploring why.

Perhaps I should just buy her book.

"My soul fell out the first time I took my knickers off" is such a sad, sad quote. :(

I assume it's in her book. Simply asking if anyone has read it as I don't have her phone number to hand.

You'd have to ask her, GetAll.

Has anyone here read Jennifer Hayashi Danns' book ?

I'm reading some interviews with her ( my soul fell out the first time I took my knickers off ) and despite articulating all the negatives mentioned on this thread she is against banning clubs but gives little information as to why... can anyone explain ?

Seenenough, I genuinely laughed at Daddancer's hysterical outburst at the 'hypothetical daughter' question.

It really did tell me all I need to know about his attitudes - which range from aggression towards people who speak out against lap dancing clubs to burying his head in the sand.

Apparently she goes with him, TheOriginalLadyFT. She, like TittyDancer, probably also thinks 'If you can't beat them, join them'.

Or perhaps she just likes seeing men paying £20 to have someone's breasts mashed in their faces. Who knows

You know, daddancer, I can see how your life must be so busy, what with fitting all the demands of family life round all your lovely trips out to titty bars.

Out of interest, how does your wife/partner feel about you going to them?

DadDancer -

Rosabud's sentence -

"It's also wrong to argue that you can only comment if you have direct experience because, in fact, as many on here have posted, lots of men DO understand how lapdancing clubs can make women feel objectified."

DOES make sense.

Your sentence -

"Sorry but this is just incoherent. How does experience of attending lap dancing clubs compare to other men's understanding of how lap dancing clubs make women feel objectified?"

DOESN'T make sense.

I think you need to read the two sentences again!

Also, you said to Rosabud -

"You are just coming across as someone who is trying to be clever now."

Having read the whole thread, I can categorically state that Rosabud comes across as being CONSIDERABLY cleverer than you. I also think you lost the argument when you finally reacted to the question (after being asked a few times) about what you would do if you discovered your own daughter was a lap dancer. I think any credibility you MIGHT have still had (I'm being kind there) was definitely lost then.

You are just coming across as someone who is trying to be clever now.

I'm not trying to be clever - I AM clever!

Sorry but this is just incoherent. How does experience of attending lap dancing clubs compare to other men's understanding of how lap dancing clubs make women feel objectified?

Err.....I think you'll find that it is your sentence which is incoherent. And there is no need for the patronising "sorry" at the beginning of the sentence, I can cope with a man disagreeing with me, it's happened before.

Seriously you should get your own house in order before trying to criticize others

And there we go with the rude, angry, aggressive tone when you feel you have been criticised and you don't fully understand the argument against you.

Hey please stop trying to twist things around Rosebud. You are just coming across as someone who is trying to be clever now. If you don't understand the logic of my arguments then that's your problem not mine.

It's also wrong to argue that you can only comment if you have direct experience because, in fact, as many on here have posted, lots of men DO understand how lapdancing clubs can make women feel objectified.

Sorry but this is just incoherent. How does experience of attending lap dancing clubs compare to other men's understanding of how lap dancing clubs make women feel objectified?

Seriously you should get your own house in order before trying to criticize others

Yes, Rosabud - mindblowing human decor.

By the way, I'm very impressed that, despite your busy work and family life, you have time to post on here extensively about how wonderful lapdancing clubs are - it must be something you feel quite passionately about

All that mind-blowing decor I expect..............

Again you have failed to follow a logical argument.

Going back to the 'you don't understand as you are not a woman' point you have made, well i could say the same thing to you.

Yes that is what you said to me! And I was turning it back on you to prove that is an illogical argument so thankyou for appreciating that fact!

You have said something like lap dancing clubs cause men to objectify women and i have come back with something like no men are more complex than that.

No, for the purposes of the thread above I was saying NOT that lapdancing clubs cause men to objectify women (although, as it happens, I do believe that to be true) BUT that lapdancing clubs cause women to feel that they are being objectifed by men. I was making this point to reinforce how illogical your "you can only comment if you have direct experience" point was. It's also wrong to argue that you can only comment if you have direct experience because, in fact, as many on here have posted, lots of men DO understand how lapdancing clubs can make women feel objectified.

I think you will probably now fail to follow the logic of this argument and come back with something like, "well the women who feel objectified don't have to go to them, do they?"

rosabud thanks for the psychoanalysis. I appologise if I haven't replied back to every question that has come my way, but i am not online all day and have a busy family/work life and simply don't have the time. I have been on this thread for over 2 weeks now and i am pretty sure i have expressed my views on all the arguments that have been put forward. I do think numerous things that i have said have been conveniently ignored too.
Going back to the 'you don't understand as you are not a woman' point you have made, well i could say the same thing to you. All of my arguments regarding objectification have been from a mans prospective. Eg. You have said something like lap dancing clubs cause men to objectify women and i have come back with something like no men are more complex than that.

Dd, the logic is that even customers who are being polite etc are damaging because it is damaging to be objectified to the extent that someone is paying to access your sexuality. Hence it is not the same logic as "don't go to the supermarket" because working in a supermarket is not intrinsically damaging in this way.

HTH.

Daddancer - if you know that lapdancing clubs cause bad experiences for the women working there, how do you justify going to them?

I justify going because i and my friends are not the ones being abusive, breaking the clubs rules etc. Not that i have ever witnessed any bad behavior in any of the 5 or 6 clubs i have been to. They have always seemed well run and the dancers have always been honest with things like the house fees, opinions of the management etc.
However i appreciate there may be clubs that aren't so well run (assuming what other people have said is true) and i would make the judgement not to visit if i did encounter one. And if they get closed down for breaking the rules then so be it.

I would also add that all kinds of work can cause bad experiences. for example do you not go to a supermarket on the principal that some staff may get abuse from the customers? As it's exactly the same logic as you are using here.

Larrygrylls - your point about understanding how someone feels without having experienced precisely the same thing is an interesting one. While I agree it is possible to empathise to a degree, I am afraid you will never convince me that a man, particularly a white, middle class man, can truly have any idea of what it is to be a woman.

Have you read the thread about women being victims of sexual attack/abuse in every day life mentioned upthread? Because it is APPALLING - not least because every woman I know could tell a story that would feature on that thread, myself included. No man will ever know what it is to grow up and exist in a society where you are considered, either overtly or subliminally, by the majority of the opposite sex to be in some way lesser because of your gender.

No man will ever understand how it feels to walk into a newsagent and be confronted by a wall of magazines with covers of women in various states of undress as though it is normal and right. Or to sit next to people on trains and buses looking at topless women on page 3 as though it is normal and right. or indeed to walk past titty clubs knowing what is going on inside, with men walking in and out as though paying someone to bump and grind is normal and right.

Go ahead, come on here and spout pedantic arguments about stats, and what have you. You might even be able to guess at a woman's motivation or rationale for certain behaviours. But don't tell me you can empathise with what it is to be a woman - because you can't.

Running,

Nope, I am genuinely interested and I need to think about your reply...bit busy with toddlers right now.

Great post running.

And I bet you don't really want to know Larry. You just want to pick my post apart.

Larry, I think that people can be objectified in relationships, but I don't think that 'fancying' someone or being physically attracted to them is objectification. I don't think it's sexual objectification in the same way as LDCs, porn, the media sexually objectifies women, anyway.

I think there is a huge difference between people meeting, where they are (hopefully) equals, and one finding the other attractive. It is all part of human sexual relationships. So, maybe I understand what Nussbaum argued - that this sort of 'objectification,' if indeed it is 'objectification,' is not necessarily negative.

I am also in absolute agreement with Nussbaum that the sexual objectification in porn is negative.

Similarly, I think the objectification in LDCs is negative - it is structural commoditisation of women in a way that a consensual relationship between 2 people just isn't. In a LDC, objectification is happening on a structural, mass level. The woman is the product - she's not just walking down the street and having someone find her attractive - she has a cash value. Women are essentially being sold by the club owners (who essentially makes a lot of profit from her - through the fees and commission) and being bought by the punters.

Not comparable to a relationship between 2 people at all.