Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

A badgering yes. the great silencing technique.

We are bad, you are good.

Nobody is desperate here.

It's just that you've resolutely failed to give an adequate answer and seem to avoid tricky questions. You say badgering, I say you're being evasive because you don't have a response.

Men, to you, are wankers for engaging in an activity that objectifies women, women engaging in an activity that objectifies women are beyond criticism.

I just don't understand, and there hasn't been a clear explanation for this.

I think the logic is 'I want you to condemn women so I can find some evidence for my prejudice that feminists despise women who work in the sex industry.'

No that's just your incorrect conjecture. I don't want you to condemn women, I just don't understand why you don't apply the same judgements and bile towards those women who freely partake freely in the objectification of women as the men who do when you are so against the objectification of women.

I am not badgering anyone. I asked a question and opened it to everyone. I thought it was missed, so I posted it again, again to everyone. At least Sabrina had a go at answering, but everyone else ducks the issue - as expected.

I think the logic is 'I want you to condemn women so I can find some evidence for my prejudice that feminists despise women who work in the sex industry.'
Which they don't. A good number of radical feminists are ex-prostituted women or sex industry workers themselves in any case - Andrea Dworkin was, Rebecca Mott is among those who was forced to strip.

I can't see why people are so desperate to see women condemn other women either - how on earth would that be a positive thing for women?

Jothehot, getallthethings, namechangeguy - you are badgering posters on here.

Many people have been quite clear that they think the men who go to these clubs are ones who should be condemned. It's quite a simple concept to understand. Badgering posters with ridiculous questions isn't going to make them change their mind.

If I'm an amateur paxman, that must make you an amateur michael howard

:o

Would condemning the strippers be a positive stance to take for women?

If you are very vocal in views against the objectification of women and feel as has been said many times on this thread, the objectification in lap dancing clubs affects all women negatively, then one might well expect you ( who express these views ) to condemn women who freely ( of their own free will etc etc ) objectify themselves.

If I'm an amateur paxman, that must make you an amateur michael howard .

'Sabrina, I would like to see you condemn strippers'

That is seriously one of the weirdest things I have ever read on Mumsnet.

Tunip I am still interested in your opinion about if the police has stamped out trafficking or they can't even though prostitution is illegal. The fact is either way some of the arguments are badly affected. And could you clarify Nevada vs other states? Is this about dancing, prostitution, trafficking or something else? I am sure that you won't answer one without the other.

Sabrina no men don't have to, just so happens that those are the 4 biggest issues on the relationship board therefore the ones that affect women most.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is where radical feminism calls falls flat on its arse. Applying half-baked classroom theory to complex real-life situations.

No political doctrine can answer a complex problem when it knows the answer before understanding the situation.

Anyway, I'm a little tired of all the amateur Jeremy Paxmans barking questions at me - real life calls. I'll look in later and see what other spurious comparisons to the lap dancing industry have been made

You couldn't be more wrong, Jothehot. Why would condemning the strippers help at all? Would condemning the strippers be a postitive stance to take for women?

I don't admire the strippers, but I condemn the men who go the clubs.

The drugs trade is frequently brought into arguments about the sex industry - I don't really think they're comparable - as you're talking about lap dancing clubs (where the commodity is the woman) and drugs - where the commidity is ... drugs. I don't really like comparing a woman to a batch of cocaine.

The drugs trade is way more complicated than the lap dancing industry. But in very-simplistic terms - if you take the demand away from anything, the supply drops.

I wasn't talking about the beauty industry though was I?

You were using horse meat consumption to illustrate your views about supply and demand.

Your point being that supply does not provoke demand. I was using the beauty industry to also make a point about supply and demand that is less easy to frame as demand being responsible for supply and that it is not as straight forward as you seem to be putting forward.

You use a metaphor I use a metaphor . no ? Is it really that hard to grasp ?

Can I ask why you seem so desperate for me to condemn the dancers and not the men who go the lap dancing clubs?

I'm not desperate for you to do anything honestly. I just don't see why women escape the kind of criticism and bile that gets fired at the men in relation to LDC's.

Saying it's because women have feelings and needs ( as someone posted above ) doesn't really answer the question as every one has feelings and needs. even men !

Sabrina, I would like to see you condemn strippers because I find your view of women very negative. You give the impression women are lesser; that they are not responsible for their actions.

So are drug takers solely to blame for the drug trade? No demand, no drugs.

This question may have been missed in the melee, so I will post again.

Let's say I was a healthy, educated, uncoerced lapdancer (female, obviously). What would you say to me? That question is open to other too, by the way.

btw if anyone doesn't like the Amsterdam/Iceland comparison, try Nevada vs other states.

Sausage, men don't have do any of your 4 options.

OK sorry you did not say he has a right (am posting while looking after 3 small children) but you are implying that there has to be a choice between one of those 4. Why choose between 4 things that harm women at all? Why not just do something that doesn't?

Yes, Larry started it about the dinosaurs and horsemeat as usual. Larry likes to muddy the waters a bit.

I wasn't talking about the beauty industry though was I?

Can I ask why you seem so desperate for me to condemn the dancers and not the men who go the lap dancing clubs?

For the record, I agree very much with Grimbletarts earlier post on the subject - I'll see if I can copy and paste it for you.

But I do hold the men who go to these clubs (and lets remember that it isn't all men as being responsible for the demand of them.

Wow, what an incredibly old-fashioned, regressive view of men's sexuality and the rights of men vs women you have Sausage!

He feels he needs an external stimulus so he has a right to do something that risks hurting a woman in some way, either through being unfaithful or participating in the sex industry regardless of the coercion and abuse that exist in all areas of it.

How about:
-erotic fiction, in the production of which no real women could possibly have been harmed
-good old imagination

An external sexual stimulus is neither a necessity nor a human right.

Outta here must stop posting must stop posting must stop posting.

< channels the godfather >

Just when I thought I was out.... they pulled me back in.

Getting back to menz brainz

Okay so here's a question. A man in a relationship finds the relationship (in his mind) is getting stale. He feels that he needs an external stimulus. Out of the 4 options below which is the worst?

Sleep with a prostitute
Use Porn
Lap Dancing club
Have an affair.

Now not saying a man should get the urge to look outside of the relationship but if you have every been on the relationship threads these 4 are the ones that crop up. To my mind a strip tease with no contact and bouncers/cctv looking over the shoulder would be a lot better than the other 3 things that keep cropping up on the boards.

It is just another thing to think of.

Outta here must stop posting must stop posting must stop posting.

I'm talking about the lap dancing industry. This thread is about lap dancing clubs.

Sorry I thought you were talking about horsemeat within this discussion.
Hang on, you were talking about horsemeat.

'I'm just laying the blame at the door of the men that create the demand for the clubs'. I know you are. Let's say I was a healthy, educated, uncoerced lapdancer (female, obviously). What would you say to me? That question is open to other too, by the way.

GetAll - no I'm not talking about the beauty industry, I'm talking about the lap dancing industry. This thread is about lap dancing clubs.