Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

Well, getall - I think we'll just have to agree to differ - since nothing I say will satisfy you. I didn't read grimbletarts post as condemning the dancers, as I said above.

Firstly, she begins the post 'I wouldn't condemn the women..." and secondly she says "I don't hesitate to wonder why non abused, well educated women do it." Wondering why a woman would choose lap dancing as a career is not the same as condemning them.

She goes onto say that she doesn't support women come what may - again - absolutely not the same as 'condemning' them.

Finally, read the conclusion of her post - she lays the blame at the door of the men who create the demand for these places, too.

GetAllTheThings. This what Grimbletart said on the subject:

Well, yes, except for the fact she's saying she would criticise women if she felt they warranted it. I'm interested in why some women refuse to criticise other women point blanc in regards to objectification.

You ( amoungst others ) are saying women are beyond criticism and indeed go on to interpret Gimbletart's post to fit your view.

namechangeguy Yes, I can see that.

xposted with namechangeguy there - when I said 'I agree with this' I meant grimbletart's post.

Jo - I copied and pasted your post. The whole post - in it's entirety. The italics went wrong, but that was your whole post. How can you say that's a misquote?

I actually very much agree with this - I don't think grimbletart's post is condemning the dancers - it is perhaps showing an inability to understand why a well educated woman would choose to lap dance, when other lucrative and probably more longer lasting careers are open to her - but it is not condemning her.

Likewise - I would not condemn the dancers themselves, or lay the responsibility for the presence of lap dancing clubs at their door. I just don't believe that these dancers are responsible for the demand for lap dancing clubs.

As I've said before, I think the responsibility for the existence of lap dancing clubs lays with the men who go to them - they are the ones who spend their money on private dances and to leer at women. They and they alone are the ones creating the demand.

GetAll, as far as I can see, it is because one of the tenets of radical feminism is that all women's actions have to be seen within the context of the patriarchy, and their victimisation/diminished status within that construct. Rad fems see women as disempowered within our society, whereas men of equal social standing are fully aware of their superior status, and choose to use that superiority to keep women 'in their place'.

So a man can be an uncaring letch who uses strippers for his own gratification, always in the full knowledge that they may well be stripping against their will. Women, even those stripping of their own free will, may not be aware that their fellow strippers are under coercion, or they may choose to turn a blind eye (in an 'I'm alright, Jack,' fashion). Either way, to criticise their behaviour is, in the mind of rad fems, moving part of the blame away from the bogeyman, i.e. the patriarchy. So, radical feminism seeks to portray women as victims, regardless of their circumstances and their actions, even if their actions harm other women, and even if they are aware of this harm.

It's pretty neat.

Oh FGS Jo.

When Running said I quoted you exactly she meant in the quote where I quoted you exactly. You know, the one where I cut and pasted.
No-one could be so stupid as to think someone would actually say 'I want you to find evidence for my prejudices.'

The only conclusion I can come to now is that you are misunderstanding deliberately in order to derail.

Thank goodness I have friends coming in an hour or two and will have to leave the thread.

GetAllTheThings. This what Grimbletart said on the subject:

poster grimbletart Thu 01-Nov-12 15:48:58
"I would never condemn those women from backgrounds that have made them vulnerable and who have low self-esteem that consequently causes them to think that their body is their only asset, but unlike some posters here I don't hesitate to wonder why non-abused, intelligent, well educated women do it when they could use their education and intelligence in more positive ways and in careers, which while not instantly paying a lot of money, have better long term prospects.

After all, even if lap dancers earn the healthy sums that some posters have mentioned (though none seem that particularly high earning to me) their careers in lap dancing will be relatively short. The punters will lose interest when gravity takes over and by that time these women's educated peers will be well advanced in proper careers with proper prospects.

My personal view is that these women don't actually care what message they are giving - being a feminist myself does not mean I support women come what may. Or maybe they have mistakenly fallen for the myth of empowerment and simply like parting idiots with more money then sense from their money. Or maybe they are exhibitionists looking for voyeurs to appreciate them. Who knows?

But LDC are like any other business insofar as they fail when demand dries up, not the supply. Take the tobacco industry (as a similar anti-social activity) as an example. The reason it turned to China, the East and Africa to hook new addicts was because the demand was falling in the West and the industry could no longer survive on Western European consumption - too little demand.

Take away the demand and the LPD would fail in the same way. Take away supply and punters would simply turn their attention to other areas of the sex trade and exploit other types of sex workers."

And you (running) think that that is exactly quoted by: 'I want you to condemn women so I can find some evidence for my prejudice that feminists despise women who work in the sex industry.'?

We have very different understanding of what quote means. The words are definitely different, so it can't possibly be an exact quote. And the meaning is almost completely inverted. Changed from, condemn them to show you that you don't think they are beneath condemnation, to almost the opposite, condemn them to show you despise them.

If people were clear about their reasoning, I wouldn't misread it. The muted reasoning is that people consuming something which is deemed to be evil are 100% to blame, and those that meet the demand are 0% to blame. This makes no sense at all. None. I challenge you to find any other situation where freely consenting adults do some immoral business together, and the consumer is held entirely to blame.

runningforthebusinheels sigh. I'm not interested in hearing Sabrina condemning female dancers.

I am genuinely wanting to know why men who freely participate in activities that objectifies women are described in vile terms, when women who do so ( of their own freewill ) are placed beyond criticism.

So far there hasn't been a persuasive argument put forwards. I'll stop asking as there obviously isn't one.

Go ahead and talk about the men and women's behaviour then, Getall. But that doesn't have to include you and other posters badgering Sabrina into condemning the female dancers. It's clearly not something she was prepared to do.

It is always interesting on these threads that people want to focus on the womens' behaviour, and not the behaviour of the men who go to these clubs.

pot.kettle.black.

I'd like to talk about the men and women's behaviour. I'd say the more radical elements want to focus on the men's behaviour 100% of the time on these threads. Personally I feel it's worth looking at the whole, not just one side.

'It is by not condemning, that sabrina shows that she despises strippers, because she thinks they are not even worthy of criticism.'

What a hilariously tortured piece of logic!

Jo I cut and pasted you saying you wanted to see Sabrina condemn strippers. That is the quote that quotes you directly.

The line that begins 'I think the logic is....' is clearly not a quote, because it is introduced by my saying 'I think the logic is...' which should be a clue that it is not a direct quote.

When I said I had quoted you directly I was referring to the quote where I had quoted your exact words. I assumed this was obvious. Apologies for not being clearer if it was not.

It is always interesting on these threads that people want to focus on the womens' behaviour, and not the behaviour of the men who go to these clubs. They are the ones spending their money in them, they're the ones paying for private dances, leering over the women, or at best (if Larry is to be believed) just treating semi naked women as background decoration.

you are reading things into peoples' reasoning that just isn't there.

I find that tends to happen a lot on these threads.

Sorry, italics fail there!

^JoTheHot Fri 02-Nov-12 10:25:28
Sabrina, I would like to see you condemn strippers because I find your view of women very negative. You give the impression women are lesser; that they are not responsible for their actions.^

So are drug takers solely to blame for the drug trade? No demand, no drugs.

That was your entire post Jothehot. I don't think Tunip misquoted you at all. I also don't agree that the subtext is that women are weak or lesser in some way - you are reading things into peoples' reasoning that just isn't there.

tunip when you say you're quoting exactly, you should do so. I said nothing that even remotely approximates the quote you ascribe to me. I said I wanted to see sabrina condemn strippers because, by her morality, strippers are immoral. She says stripping is evil, but only condemns the people that watch it. By my morality, strippers are not immoral. By refusing to condemn strippers, the subtext is that condemning them would be to pick on something weak and defenseless, something lesser than Sabrina. It is by not condemning, that sabrina shows that she despises strippers, because she thinks they are not even worthy of criticism.

If you gave the strippers £1000 to phone in their shift I'm sure they would

Well who wouldn't. I'd take a grand to phone in my shift at work.

And I agree with the supply and demand. If you gave the strippers £1000 to phone in their shift I'm sure they would. The amount of money they can make. or whether it pays for a college education is not the point.

I dont' think men want to see normal bodies. Which is :-/ and all tied up with strip clubs and porn.

there's a part of me that would like to strip, NOT for money, but to show what the body of a woman who exercises 5 times a week, doesn't smoke, walks everywhere, eats low gi diet actually looks like because strippers' bodies are caricatures.

I have been lurking before anybody says 'read the thread'. I have been reading on and off. Although I can't chime in with an opinion on every single point.

If I asked one of the posters on here to strip for me, for money, would she be within her rights to strip?

Getallthethings I have answered that question many times. I condemn the men because they are the ones doing the abusing.

I was directly quoting JoTheHot, who says she wants Sabrina to condemn strippers.

Allthe - Sabrina has answered the question over and over. Read back.

You may not like or agree with her answer - but she has answered you.

She condemns the men who go to the clubs - as do I. She doesn't condemn the women dancers - because they are just supplying the demand of misogynistic men who want to go to clubs and leer over naked chicks.

As said upthread (again, read back) condemning the women dancers is holding women responsible for men's bad behaviour.