Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

I have to go now, but thinking about Doc's last point - what could I say to my daughter if it's what she wanted to do? If I was satisfied that she wasn't there against her will, and she wasn't involved in illegal activity, I would be stuck with it. And as I said before, I would not be surprised if her generation were far less judgemental than mine about it.

Namechangeguy: 'On balance, whilst I can see that many LDC's might be legitimate, and many women working there do so because they want to, my gut feel is that we, as a society, would be better off without them. As I say, it's a gut feeling, and I am not really sure if I am being logical.'

Thanks for that. I also cannot think of a capitalist enterprise that isn't demand-led - and certainly I think lap dancing clubs are. So yes, jothehot the onus is on the consumer in the cases of LDC's.

I don't think the (predominantly, if not totally male) club owners get away scot-free either. They are profiting from the exploitation of women, but they would be unable to do so with the consumer being willing to part with their money and go into these clubs.

GetAll, what if your DD wasn't at a lap dancing club to put herself through college but was there as her medium term job option?

And I cannot think of a capitalist enterprise that isn't demand-led.

Grimble, did you see where I said;

'On balance, whilst I can see that many LDC's might be legitimate, and many women working there do so because they want to, my gut feel is that we, as a society, would be better off without them. As I say, it's a gut feeling, and I am not really sure if I am being logical.'

Is that answer enough, or did you want me to expand? I am happy to do so.

namechangeguy: so, like GetAllTheThings your reaction would be embarrassment all round.

Which begs the question..if LDCs are acceptable there should be no embarrassment. So why would there be embarrassment?

I do actually understand why posters may be irritated at the focus being all on the men rather than on the women - it's a natural defence mechanism to condemnation (a sort of what about the womenz reaction, to turn a common comment on these threads on its head).

But it is a fact that it is a demand-led industry. Cut the demand, the industry dies because no woman could make any money from it.

You are both free to expound your internally inconsistent views without my support. You may both cry from the rooftops that women and men are equal, except that women who strip are less equal than the men who watch them, because

-the men know what they are doing but the women don't.
-the women are granted a special exemption in the interest of female solidarity.
-stripping is different from all other immoral exchanges, in that the consumer bears all the blame, and the supplier none, because er....just because.

As we are going round in circles a bit here, would the objections also apply to shows like that place is Paris with can-can and topless dancers - is it Moulin Rouge? I have never been, but I believe it's a 'cultural' venue rather than a titty bar, frequented by couples rather than single men. Do they still have dancers with bare breasts?

Jothehot - we'll have have to do without your respect then - somehow we'll struggle along without it I'm sure.

I for one will lay the blame for lap dancing clubs firmly where it belongs - with the men who think it's normal and fine to pay for women to take their clothes off.

1. Jo wants consistency.

I've given my firmly held view and reasons for why I do not and will not criticise both. You're utterly and absolutely free not to 'respect' those views. Just as I'm free to very much disrespect your views. :)

To answer grimble's question - hypothetically, if I went and met her, I assume it would be embarrassment all round. I'd wonder why the hell she was there, but then again she would be thinking the same thing! Incidentally, I would not be surprised if her generation had a much more relaxed attitude to working there, perhaps because in many cities they are part of the landscape.

But, I am not defending them. I haven't on here, I don't think. All I have done is question why people feel the need to heap all the blame on the punters (even though I think I know why).

On balance, whilst I can see that many LDC's might be legitimate, and many women working there do so because they want to, my gut feel is that we, as a society, would be better off without them. As I say, it's a gut feeling, and I am not really sure if I am being logical.

< bangs head against wall >

It's not a question of liking your answer Somerset, we're not on FaceBook, I just didn't find you answered the question.

I asked about your attitudes to women who lap dance ( or contribute towards objectification in other ways ) who aren't doing so through abuse or drug habits. Your answers are all about women who are there through drug habits and abuse, or you just talk about demand.

Which I find is evading the question.

I, and others, would like you to be consistent in your criticism, and not single women out as being unfit for criticism when men and women together are doing something you disapprove of. Critcise both, or neither, then I could respect your views.

Nope - not feelings and needs at all GetAll.

As I'm now tired of saying it's because I don't want to blame women dancers for the bad behaviour of the men who visit the clubs. That the men going to these clubs and spending their money on naked women create the demand for them. Why do you persist in ignoring this?

Don't agree? Fine - that's your right. But don't try and make out that I (and others) haven't said it.

Ok - but I did try and explain why I don't condemn the dancers several times

Ah yes, because they have feelings and needs.

I answered that question several pages back, as well Get.

You just didn't like the answer.

Ok - but I did try and explain why I don't condemn the dancers several times. So did many other posters - so maybe you're the slow reader?

Well, you were all rather going on a bit.

Sabrina

Jesus Sabrina you're obsessed with this idea that I want you to castigate lap dancers. How many times does it need to be said ? Are you a slow reader ?

I don't want you to castigate lap dancers or set women on women. I simply wanted to know why you feel women are beyond criticizm. Completely different.

Or were the men on here just wanting to pitch women against women with their absolute desperation for me to condemn and blame the dancers

lol.

Yes we're in absolute despair !

You just said you wouldn't castigate your daughter if she became a lapdancer. But you'd like me to castigate her instead? (I won't).

Yes I noticed the 'distancing' too. Arguing vociferously for the rights of men to pay for women to wiggle around half naked - then oh, no I don't go to them/ I went once/ I went years ago, wouldn't go now.

Well I'm not actually arguing 'vociferously' for lap dancing clubs, I just don't get the attitude that women are blameless in these situations.

Gimble. I guess because evidently they aren't just another place of work, I've never said they were. The women or men getting their kit off are paid a premium for doing so that a shelf stacker will not. But I don't see that as a reason to shut them all down.

And of course I encourage my lovely daughter to be something worth while. I wouldn't be much of a dad if I didn't. She's only 3 but I tell her she can be anything. And if she doesn't become an astronaut, a racing driver or a dinosaur tamer, I won't give her too much of a hard time.

But if she ends up lap dancing to get through college I wouldn't castigate her.

I worked in a photo lap till 3am four days a week when I was at college for not much money. If someone had said 'how about getting your kit off infront of a load of drunk men who can't touch you for £300 a night' I certainly would have considered it.

When I started in the City, it was horrifically sexist. I could not agree more. There were some truly shocking guys around and, yes, porn and page 3 were prevalent on desks. Lap dancing certainly did not exist in the UK then.

However, it is just not like that any more (with the exception of a few neanderthal organisations). So, I am not sure that LDCs can be claimed to have a detrimental effect on the workplace. Certainly not enough to outweigh strong laws and HR departments and just many more women represented in all areas of work.

Interesting. Out of interest, Larry, how do you think we got from the one state of affairs (a 'horrifically sexist' culture) to the other (it 'just not being like that any more')?

Do you think this fundamental mind-shift in attitude happened in a vacuum...?

Or were the men on here just wanting to pitch women against women with their absolute desperation for me to condemn and blame the dancers?