Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

You're not treating a dancer as an equal because you are paying her to take her clothes off for you.

but you could apply that to any situation where money exchanges hands. replace 'take her clothes off for you.' to another situation like serving you a drink for example. So you are saying that anyone who provides a service to another person are then regarded a lesser person? why should nudity be regarded as a special case?

It's objectification and exploitation and effects all women in the attitudes men have towards them.

If it's a consensual exchange between adults then it's not exploitation. I also don't agree with the theory that it effects all women. i can't see any proven link to back this up either.

It's different from any other performance because you are treating her like a sexual object - paying her to take her clothes off for you for your sexual gratification.

No they are a normal person taking their clothes off performing a dance that they have chosen. You are not propositioning the girl eg. asking her to do this, this and this for x amount of money. She is inviting you to watch her dance for x amount of money. If it turns a person on or not is down to the individual.

I don't do flirting at work but a lot of other people do. It was more an observation of what some people do as a release in long term relationships.

please see my previous posts above for my views regarding the 'it's always someones daughter' argument.

Just to clarify re. flirting at work - I've known more than one man come a cropper at work for what they thought was harmless flirting, but what the woman involved thought was sexual harrassment.

You're not treating a dancer as an equal because you are paying her to take her clothes off for you. It's objectification and exploitation and effects all women in the attitudes men have towards them.

It's different from any other performance because you are treating her like a sexual object - paying her to take her clothes off for you for your sexual gratification.

No - I'm not saying you can't fancy a person if you're not in a relationship with them - but you certainly shouldn't be leering over them. And you probs shouldn't be flirting with the girls at work - unless it's very much reciprocated. There's a very good law against that.

Own space in relationships is fine - as long as own space doesn'e mean doing things that the other person would consider as tantamount to cheating/betrayal.

You and wife can set your own rules as far as what's ok in your relationship - but think of the women you are paying to strip for you. Think of how you are objectifying them, using them. Think of how you would feel if another man was doing that to your daughter - they're all someones daughter.

You should want a better world for your daughter than one where men think it's ok to leer at her on a beach, in the workplace, in a club.

kim147 no i agree why not have grid guys and isn't it about time we had a female F1 driver too?

There is a massive difference between looking at someone sexually and treating women as equals that you can love and have sexual relationships with and leering at women as sexual objects on the beach, in lap dancing clubs etc. Can you really not see the difference?

but please explain why I wouldn't treat a dancer as an equal? Just because money exchanges hands and there is nudity involved, how is it any different to any other live performance? So are you saying that you can't fancy another person unless you are in a loving relationship with them? Is window shopping really such a bad thing? What about flirting with the opposite sex?, it's rife in the work place. Is it not good for persons in long term relationships to have a bit of their own space now and again? Just as long as boundaries are established and are not crossed then why should it be a problem? My OH doesn't have a problem with porn and watching striptease as long as it's an occasional thing, and i don't spend too much money. I am happy for her to do the same and she has seen male strippers too.

TheDoctrine

"There is more pressure on blokes than on women to look good these days."

Righty-ho.

Sleep tight everyone!

Daddancer - when you see women topless on the beach do you leer at them? What is your motivation for going to lap dancing clubs, as opposed to a normal bar?

Leering is predatory, malicious, sly. Sexual desire is a normal human emotion - you can sexually desire someone without leering. My husband sexually desires me, but I have never felt leered at by him.

Can you not see a difference between 'leering' and 'looking at someone sexually' FastLoris?

I can.

So kim147 what are all these boy bands about then? i remember my sisters bedroom plastered with Take That posters. Many semi naked, including the famous bare bum poster. Was it a figment of my imagination? There's just as much pressure for blokes to be seen as fit, hunky, big muscles etc. I'd go as far as saying that there is more pressure on blokes to look good than women these days. I myself actually take longer to get ready than my OH. I have even been labelled at work as a metro-sexual. I think girls are far more judgmental on looks then men are, and criticize other women far more than any man could.

You talk about F1 but my female colleagues are always lusting over Mark Webber, despite him being a very average driver with not having much personality. Personally i don't have a problem with this but i am sure if i started commenting on how i liked the grid girls i'd be crucified.

There is a massive difference between looking at someone sexually and treating women as equals that you can love and have sexual relationships with and leering at women as sexual objects on the beach, in lap dancing clubs etc. Can you really not see the difference?

Yes, "leering" is a judgment-laden pejorative term and "looking at sexually" isn't. Other than that they both involve pointing your eyes at someone and getting horny.

Well, I just about rescued the dinner and see it has all kicked off again following my (what I think) was a pertinent question to would-be LDC defenders.

I see the thread has moved on, but anyway....

In my absence Doctrine has kindly pointed out what my response would be to GetAllTheThings i.e. I made no judgement whatsoever on any other parent?s parenting skills (only my own), on no other person?s daughters (only my own - NB ?not as intelligent? does not = stupid by the way); skint was not a reference to anyone else?s daughter, only my own. I was asked for a personal opinion. I gave it and was very precise about it being a personal opinion. That does not mean GetAllTheThings that you can then extrapolate it to an entire population because that makes it an exception fallacy.

Re cardboard cut outs.. maybe I was a little harsh, but I was trying to bring home, however ineptly, the fact that the women in these clubs are real people with real feelings. Sure, the punters are humans as you assert with a variety of motives for being there and I cannot know all their motives and what drives them, but I do believe that when they cross the threshold into these clubs they leave a little of their humanity behind.

I note that as the guilty party who personalised it by asking posters to imagine it was their daughter rather than an anonymous women there has been an outbreak of faux outrage by one or two (as in don't bring my daughter into it) and a general air of defensiveness pervading the thread.

It kind of gets into your head doesn't it when that no-name woman wiggling front of you while you possibly struggle to contain your sexual 'emotions' suddenly morphs into your daughter?

Somerset -

"... as long as it's somewhere with clear boundaries and they're not at risk of abuse"

Yes, well... Obviously.

That's a pretty big hook to hang your approval on. Pretty much a given that this would be the proviso - but of course the (tiny? medium? huge?) chance that this may not be the case is clearly a big part of why so many of us have a problem with these places.

That wasn't my impression of the question - I thought we were being asked whether we'd be OK with it just taking the clubs and their rules on face value. So I gave my answer. As for how I'd feel about my daughter being coerced into a job like that or sexually harassed by her boss or whatever, that'd be a different question (although of course that can happen in other jobs too).

I'm not sure whether you're correct about how big a part of peoples' objection the risk of abuse is. It's come up a little on this thread but whenever things are pointed out like the apparent absence of trafficked women in the clubs, the use of CCTC cameras and testimony of lapdancers who don't have any such problems, it doesn't change anyone's mind.

By far the greatest part of this thread, it seems to me, has been about the issue of "objectification", and it's been clear that all the antis consider that aspect of the clubs unacceptable even when they do operate scrupulously within the rules. They don't think the clubs should be closed because what else they might lead to - they think they should be closed because they are wrong per se, even within the stated boundaries.

Yes, daddancer - every girl you meet in life is someone's daughter. The girl you have sex with, hopefully wants it too and is having mutually consensual sex, be it a one night stand or a relationship. Don't leer at the girl sunbathing topless on the beach - she just doesn't want tan lines. Don't go in the lap dancing club and leer at the women, or pay them to strip for you. The girl doing a sex scene on the bbc drama is (hopefully) doing it for the dramatic relevance of the story - but that's a whole difference debate!

There is a massive difference between looking at someone sexually and treating women as equals that you can love and have sexual relationships with and leering at women as sexual objects on the beach, in lap dancing clubs etc. Can you really not see the difference?

I hope my daughter goes through life having fulfilling relationship(s) with men - men who respect her as an equal. Not men who want to leer at her, abuse her, stick a tenner in her knickers and have her strip for him. You should hope for that for your daughter too.

^No personal attacks were made against your family Daddancer. This is obviously an angle of the argument that makes you very uncomfortable though - and rightly so. Lap dancers are all someone's daughter - don't forget it.

My daughter is a minor too. I'll happily answer the question with 'what Sabrina said'.^

No the only thing that makes me uncomfortable is involving someone into the discussion that has no way of having an input or defending themselves.

Yes but every girl you meet in life is somebody's daughter. The girl you have sex with, be it in a loving relationship or a one night stand, the girl sunbathing on the beach topless, the girl working in the lap dancing club, the girl doing a sex scene in a bbc period drama. It's always going to be someones daughter. If we took that logic then no one would ever be able to think of anyone in a sexual way -because it's somebodys daughter

"... as long as it's somewhere with clear boundaries and they're not at risk of abuse"

Yes, well... Obviously.

That's a pretty big hook to hang your approval on. Pretty much a given that this would be the proviso - but of course the (tiny? medium? huge?) chance that this may not be the case is clearly a big part of why so many of us have a problem with these places.

I feel like we're going round in circles and getting nowhere at this point.

Dad - no-one was implying your daughter would be a dancer. But rather, just trying to humanise the person doing the dancing. You're all gung-ho saying you don't objectify - and yet when someone asks you how you'd feel about your daughter doing this job, it seems to entirely freak you out. As well it should.

All these women are someone's daughter. And if their parents don't care about them - then that's even sadder for them.

Oh, it's no joke Daddancer.

I'm not laughing anyway. Your over-emotional response speaks volumes.

Also how many dads actually like the the thought of their daughter having sex with a bloke? probably not many. Does that mean we should ban them from going out with blokes? no of course not.
My issue was not the fact of implying my daughter will be a dancer but the fact that you feel the need to include her as part of your joke, when she is a minor and has had no involvement in these discussions.

No personal attacks were made against your family Daddancer. This is obviously an angle of the argument that makes you very uncomfortable though - and rightly so. Lap dancers are all someone's daughter - don't forget it.

My daughter is a minor too. I'll happily answer the question with 'what Sabrina said'.

Finally, may I ask the male supporters of LPDs here what they would do if they were in an LPD, asked for a dance and found that it was their own daughter who turned up in front of them?

Well I don't go to lapdancing clubs but I don't really have anything against them or think they should be banned, so I don't know if I qualify as a "supporter". And my daughters are pre-puberty so I haven't got round to thinking about what it means for them to be sexual beings yet.

But I expect I'd probably be acutely embarrased, and then laugh. I don't honestly have a problem with the idea of one of my children doing that for a living, if it's right for that stage of their life, as long as it's somewhere with clear boundaries and they're not at risk of abuse.

^Upset you, did it?

All the women you objectify and dehumanise by visiting strip clubs are someone's daughter.
You could involve my DD and my husband in this discussion with pleasure, my husband likes and respects women, he has never and would never set foot in a place like that, he thinks that the men who do are pathetic individuals and my adult daughter has far too much self respect to ever consider taking money for stripping from a man like you.^

Yeah but when they are over 18, it's their life, it's their choice. You are making personal attacks about my family which you know nothing about and my daughter happens to be a minor.