Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

Wow Seen, you seem to know so much, got any proof that LDCs in the UK have trafficked women in (which the police haven't believed in two anti-trafficking operations). Am I desperate to prove there isn't or are some people desperate to prove there are? Actual more desperate to claim there are as there is no evidence. The moment you take trafficking out one of the key arguments against LDCs falls through the floor as it means the dancers are there of their own free will. I have no doubt that trafficking takes place and that prostitution of trafficked women happens. Just saying the evidence points against it in LDCs

Ok lets go over all the claims about clubs we have seen on this thread

Violence/Sexual crimes: All the figures we have seen have been against this, the only research looking at all the clubs is by a pro striptease fan but he uses a standard methodology that has been quoted by anti striptease so it is checkable. Lillith report has been shown to be unreliable and in error. Claims in Newquay by Inspector Drummond have been shown to be the opposite under a freedom of information request.

Trafficking: No raids on clubs during Pentameter or Pentameter 2 and anecdotal evidence by the one person who works in the industry. No proof by any other party that trafficking happens.

Exploitation: Yes by club owners but could be dealt with by regulations. The dancers are working by their own choice which makes the need to regulate seem a better option than banning.

Wages: All relative but certainly higher than the UK average if we assume an average of 4 shifts.

Objectification: Obviously men objectify the women but the image is not coming out of the clubs or the sexal/violent crime aspect would be higher. Not all objectification is bad we know this as the mother of objectification has stated this herself.

Most men don't go: Given the amount of money the industry is worth there has to be a lot of men going or the clubs would close.

Sausage, with statements like that I can't take you seriously. You can't say 'there isn't ANY'! People are paid to lie. People are paid to cover up. Of course there is trafficking, and if it isn't quite SO prevalent in Britain, it IS in the EU. You sound very very desperate to get a point across...I would love to know what your real motives are.

No but Somerset implied there was trafficking and there isn't any.

Your post in disingenuous, sausage.

Trafficking hasn't formed the basis of Somerset's arguments on this thread and you know it.

Somerset I was a bit harsh, let clear one thing up though you stated

I'm glad you feel smug about TD's assertion that no women are trafficked, sausage. Well done on being so able to be influenced by a single anecdote. Do you feel as smug about TD's other assertions, or did you not read her entire post? All is hardly rosy in the garden.

The implication and wording of that statement is that it may not be true. Yes everything is not rosy and as I have stated several times the dancers would be better protected by laws. But your wording does imply that the anecdote may be inaccurate.

Also you stated

Besides, we can't quite assert that no dancers are trafficked based on the posts of one person claiming to be a lap dancer on an anonymous internet forum.

Which is true except there have been two national police efforts in the UK to tackle Trafficking and during which no club was raided. So between the assertion of TD and the lack of police activity involving clubs it seems that trafficking doesn't exist in LDCs in the UK. Anyone able to prove different? Or can we just accept that the dancers in the UK are making free decisions?

Also Somerset if most men don't go to these clubs how are they still operating? To support the number of dancers that object have claimed are working (this is where 10,000 comes from) and the average shift wage we are talking either a few billionaires or an awful lot of men going. The figures I got from "that blog" is 250 clubs which means each club is averaging £7000 per night on dances (remembering the house cut). If we assumed each man spent £100 (which seems a lot) that is around 18000 men on any one night in clubs. And how many men could afford more than one night a week? Not too many so in any week that is 120,000 men

Somerset, thank you so much for posting on this thread - I totally get, and agree with your points about the bigger picture, even though it seems to go way over some peoples' heads.

Seenenough - thanks for your post.

Well that is interesting someone making judgements on the UK strip scene who doesn't even live here. Somerset have a good night I really not worried about your views now.

Sorry - what claims? Can you copy and paste them? I don't recall them, so a refresher would be helpful.

I'm enjoying the notion that men are objectified in society to anything resembling the same extent women are. Amusing idea. Also - a copy and paste of where I said I wanted to ban or disallow anyone from choosing would be good, while you're searching.

In the meantime, stop making up my stance for me, please.

It's Sunday night here and I'm knackered, so this is me until the morning.

Somerset sorry but you are making claims about trafficking, would love to see your proof.

I want my daughter to be able to choose to do whatever she wants in her life. I want my boys to have the same opportunities. Objectification is natural it is part of sexual desire. The evidence is that sexual violence is not spilling out of the LDCs so men who go in there are controlling their sexual desires. If you believe men are coming out of these slavering monsters ready to rape and pillage then why do the crime figures not support that?

You want more for womankind but you don't want 10,000 women to be able to choose because of your personal beliefs. Hmmmm

It's not just about the individual women lap dancers. It's about the impact on women as a whole. You may not care about the reality of that - you clearly don't - but I do, and it's why I keep arguing the toss on this Godforesaken thread...

And...

Am I really such an awful person in your eyes for wanting more for womenkind, for wanting as much for my daughter as I do for my son? For wanting my daughter to be able to go out into the world as an individual, without having to worry about the sort of bog-standard unwelcome and unwanted attention that seems to be par for the course for pretty much all women in a way that it isn't for men?

Interesting if a dancer came on and said she thought they may be trafficking you would have been jumping up and down. 2 dancers (one secondhand via myself) say they believe there is no trafficking but that doesn't fit the theory so it is anecdotal and you can ignore it. Well if that what you need to believe thats up to you but if you were right how come not one club was raided under Pentameter? Seems the police with all their intelligence gathering didn't think the clubs had any Trafficked women either.

Who thinks Tittydancer is a man...? I'm not quite ready to alter my feelings and beliefs on this topic based on one person's alleged experience as a lap dancer. Sorry if that disappoints. But no, I don't think she's a man.

I'm glad you feel smug about TD's assertion that no women are trafficked, sausage. Well done on being so able to be influenced by a single anecdote. :) Do you feel as smug about TD's other assertions, or did you not read her entire post? All is hardly rosy in the garden.

As for caring about what the reality is... how many time...?! It's not just about the individual women lap dancers. It's about the impact on women as a whole. You may not care about the reality of that - you clearly don't - but I do, and it's why I keep arguing the toss on this Godforesaken thread...

Your na-na-na-na-na tone is, quite frankly, just odd. Am I really such an awful person in your eyes for wanting more for womenkind, for wanting as much for my daughter as I do for my son? For wanting my daughter to be able to go out into the world as an individual, without having to worry about the sort of bog-standard unwelcome and unwanted attention that seems to be par for the course for pretty much all women in a way that it isn't for men?

Jo, well if all types of men go to LDCs, then clearly all types of men also don't. There's obviously hope for mankind yet.

And thanks Seen. :)

Somerset - I have read as much as I have had time for of this thread, and there are some of you putting your point of view across tirelessly and it has renewed my faith in the human race.

I will spend more time reading these issues in future, as I am frightened for my children growing up in this very unequal world, where society is determined to stamp out every ill except the objectification of women.

My children carry home horror stories of how 15 year old girls are being treated sexually by their boyfriends and it is screamingly obvious that this industry (the whole sex industry - EVERY part of it) in one way or another is to blame.

I am sure your family and friends are proud of the strong moral fibre running through you that inevitably will transfer itself naturally in one way or another through them and to others because they are lucky enough to have your strong and good influence in their lives.

A lot more than can be said for many many others on here.

I'm really intrigued as to why the pro-LDC women posting here (aside from TD) are so keen to promote LDC's as being so wonderful with no harmful effects at all.

I'm not buying the "opposing feminist lies" angle. What does it matter to you what people who are opposed to LDC's say?

It just comes across as trying to convince yourself of something and I'm sure not sure why. Men who use the clubs, I can understand why they'd want to convince themselves that it's harmless fun, but what is the motivation for women to do the same?

Come on, one dancer coming onto MN isn't the oracle of all lap dancing clubs.

She can, and has, talked of her own experience - but she can't say definitively that no women are trafficked- no single lap dancer can reliably make that claim. I think trafficking is probably more commonplace in prostitution - but punters deny it happens there too.

Somerset seems upset that someone has come on how actually knows the industry and isn't quoting beliefs or second hand information. The big picture changes when 10,000 women are choosing for themselves rather than a handful telling everyone what's right. The number of independent thinking dancers making choices is too big to suit them. I think this was the whole reason to claim trafficking as a smaller number of "non trafficked" dancers make claims that stockholm syndrome and living in denial are feasible.

Of course it is an internet forum we could all be anybody. I happen to believe TD is who she says she is. Makes it a lot easier in peoples heads to pretend TD is a man because otherwise some of the "truths" about the industry we have been fed from the likes of the guardian aren't quite as true as we thought.

Who is the more free thinking dancers making choices or those who just want to believe the worst and don't care about what the reality actually is.

You are going to great lengths to contradict something that no-one has said somerset. It's been suggested that all types of men go to LDCs, but nowhere that all men go to them. Are Tittydancer's post that painful that you are reading them too fast to understand what's been said?

How do people feel now about dancers knowing that none are trafficked

Not sure how many times I have to say it, but my issue is with the bigger picture and the impact on women as a whole. Trafficking is nether here nor there when it comes to that...

Besides, we can't quite assert that no dancers are trafficked based on the posts of one person claiming to be a lap dancer on an anonymous internet forum.

Sausageeggbacon - how am I trying to drive anyone off? It was a reaction to a comment - and it just seemed like a slightly ridiculous, button-pressing choice to pose. Lap dancing clubs ... or ... extreme violent porn. In whose world is it either/or of these two?!

Seriously, if I was a man, I'd be pretty bloody offended by that comment. It makes them seem like little better than caged beasts.

And yes, the old tried and true trick of asserting that all men go to LDC. All men go to strip clubs. All men use prostitutes, do they? All men like extreme violent porn, I suppose as well, do they? All men? Even most men do/use all of these...?

Not even all men drink alcohol. Not even all men like socialising. And yet there's a plethora of bars and pubs and restaurants to cater for the huge market of people who do like to go out and socialise. If all men go to LDCs, then why aren't there at least half as many LDCs as there are pubs, bars and restaurants in order to cater for the huge demand of all these men going to them?

We all know there are men who go to these places behind partners' backs - the threads pop up here often enough. I know enough of my DH's misspent youth and his past to know he's been as well. As I said, I don't live in some deluded bubble. But even allowing for all of this - it's patently a fallacy to state that all men go; that all men need SEVs in their lives. We'd be running out of women to do jobs other than stripping, if that were the case.

I understand that people on the pro side probably need to think that all men frequent. But it's patently not the case.

If DD wanted to dance and she was making an informed choice then like any mother I would be worried but whatever choice my daughter makes I would back her 100%. The reason for the worry is the inconsistency of the approach by the clubs.

As to clubs with male dancers, not sure if wicked in blackpool or Lap Attack in London are still going but wicked was a combined club and Lap Attack was ladies only (googled male lap dancers).

Interested that it seems many men (TD did not say all, just most) will go and not be honest with their partner. For me the club wouldn't be the deal breaker the lying would. But if clubs would be a deal breaker then I could see quite a few men denying they have gone/ever go because of the worry about breaking up.

How do people feel now about dancers knowing that none are trafficked, sitting here quite smug about that one.

That still doesn't make sense grimble

The embarresment factor only exists because of the father daughter dynamic.

Tittydancer says she does not feel embarresed doing private dances, I'm sure she would if her dad turned up, but given her clients aren't her dad where is the inherant embarressment ?

The better question I guess is 'how would you feel if your dd was working as a LD ? '

For me personally it would depend entirely on the circumstance I wouldn't be embarressed of her job choice.

Sorry. I know I'm sounding pedantic.

Tricky Dicky's in Birmingham - 'for straight girls and gay men' - seems, from googling, to have died at least an internet death in 2007. Did it take off? Did it fold?

Obviously if it wasn't my daughter I wouldn't feel the same feeling as those feeling are based on it being my daughter in a sexually charged situation.

What I am trying to get at by using the daughter example and saying all dancers are someone's daughter is whether you - not you personally, the collective you - finding themselves embarrassed to be in that situation can have enough imagination as a parent to transfer that sense of embarrassment from your own daughter to the feeling other men would probably have over their daughters.

It takes quite a leap of compassion and empathy to do that - putting yourself in another's place - maybe that is a leap too far for many men who frequent LDCs.

Anyway, it's been an interesting discussion. Have a good weekend everyone.

I don't know about male dancers in LDCs, sorry.

Has she not been accused of being a man yet then ?