Misconceptions of Feminism

I like Xenia. She can say the stuff that men can't - at least not without kicking off a huge fight.

Summer flower I agree it does get touring.and the higher you get the more invidious and pervasive it becomes.
I like xenia posts too!

I would not have tolerate sexism at home for one single day

Good points. For me as I earned 10x m,y children's father you can be absolutely certain it would not be me taking lots of time off for sick children or working the washing machine. I would not have tolerate sexism at home for one single day.

Men and women certainly need good back up at home.

My aughter was saying yesterday (who is in work) that so many people don't do as they say they will and we in our family are utterly reliable. Even if our leg were half sawn off we are likely to carry on as it were. Whatever your gender if you are stoic and utterly reliable and the best there is at your work in the UK it is dead easy to appear better than everyone else. if you are off sick with yourself or you child for every single snuffle, moan and rub your pregnant tummy at work and use it as some kind of excuse to take every day off you can nd are pretty useless at your job anyway and often late for work then not surprising whatever your gender you tend to do badly

It's why I think our chidlren need to develop grit, determination, ability to survive under pressure (why trips up big mountains and survival stuff is great fot teenagers whether in state or private schools), keeping going whatever, always being positive not negative and doing what you say you will do whatever - just as important as exam results. Being easy to get on with, reliable and having that determination, staying power really helps at work.

Anyway the bottom line is women are doing better and bett6er and most are too sensible to enable a man at home to do less than they do.

@Xenia,

Leaving aside the question of Thatcher, as that is another debate ? I think it is a circular argument. In the sector I work, there is roughly parity at junior levels but it fairly quickly falls off in promoted posts, actually at the level I am at, the number of women represented begins to go off a cliff. The organisation I work for recently produced a lengthy document with numerous recommendations to address this issue. These are documented barriers to promotion for women which I identify with, being exactly at the point where women stop progressing at the same rate as men, so I don?t think it is as simple as saying women don?t ?want? promotion age 32.

On the other hand, I do wonder how much identifying and publicising barriers makes those barriers more real, if you see what I mean. If you are already doing the bulk of the domestic stuff for whatever reason, plus a full-time job, and you are told that there are x,y,z structural barriers to promotion, and that you would be better to wait a few years (yes, have heard that several times), then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In other words, if you think/are told that you can?t do something, or it is harder, then it becomes harder? Meaning, of course it is harder for me than DH, but am I also thinking myself out of even attempting, because it represents an impossible mountain on top of everything else? How the heck do you tackle that mountain individually, if it requires a lengthy consultation document and dozens of recommendations institutionally? (That?s before you start to consider the vast swathes of media and press devoted to making women think their primary task is mother and that leaving a child in childcare is emotional neglect).

Anyway, could go round and round on this all day and I am not sure I am even making sense... am very tired!!

For me feminism is equal rights for men and women under the law and fairness at home. That is all.

It means no assumption because you're female you do more housework or work outside the home less than a man.

On erotic power I think the idea is women have a lot more than men but as it's only got up 1% of the world's wealth it can be up to that much. I would much rather be on the throne than the power behind it. Let us leave men to have the power behind the throne. The throne itself is much more fun and where the real power lies.

I serve my children for a huge pay...I serve a woman for minimum wage..

What is a feminist??

All the classics:

• We hate SAHMs
• We hate children
• We hate attractive women or women who wear makeup and like fashion
• We're obsessed with a 'battle of the sexes' and 'coming out on top'
• Our main goal is making men as downtrodden as possible

My two main bugbears at present:

• That it's all about 'choice' and that having personal choice is what makes one feminist
• That we're all about 'dictating' to women how they should live/what choices they should make

It certainly helps in some companies where only a few people can be promoted to know women bail out at 32 and won't want promotion. It removes your problems over how to deal with people getting older but not promoted. Manna from heaven for those companies that so many women marry richer men at that age who want them to stay at home. Of course I wish it were otherwise and employers were fearful of recruiting a 30+ man because he is likely to leave to have babies and not be interested in work.

I certainly agree that just like men women can work full time and love their families and home lives too. It is the balance that more and more women choose and is very achievable if you have fairness at home and no sexism.

Lady Thatcher was by no means universally villified. She was elected. She was very successful. She turned the country round and many admired and admire her. There are quite a few left wing people on mumsnet but they do not reflect the majority of the British people. She also brought common sense values to the country too - you don't spend the money you don't have basic housekeeping as it were.

I think another misconception is that all women are going to do the same things at about the same times in their lives. I do believe that the -perception- of women by men is a huge reason there are not more women in boardrooms.

Men seem to believe that all women will get only so far on the career ladder before they want kids, and that when they do want kids, they will want to stay home, OR if she does get up the ladder a way, she will get married and then her husband will not agree to facilitate her career by moving or doing what he can to let her get a leg up. That's the perception that Xenia and Avaboosmummy are struggling with, and what SAHM are hearing them talk about.

Part of the struggle is to make it understood in the professional world that there is more than one (male) way to run things, and there's a good chance that way is as good or better than the existing model.

But why would men want or feel the need to change when they have what they think is the best system? It works for them, after all.

Thank you for your reply. I've been mulling over your comment about Thatcher, because my first political memory as a small child is her being elected in 1979. Politics aside, I'm now wondering a) how much of the way she was vilified was because she was a woman and b) about the influence of having a female prime minister when I was growing up (and related to the first point, the influence of media responses to Thatcher as both a politician and a woman). But that is definitely another thread.

Single sex education - is that about sex or class, though? I went to a co-ed school and (being a child of the 80s maybe) I didn't leave school thinking I could do any less well than boys and I didn't do any less well than the boys. My sister, on the other hand, went to a single sex private school and came out anorexic. I really didn't become aware of gender as an issue until I was pregnant with DD. Maybe that was niave.

But anyway, a lot of what you say is about role models, I think, but also expectations. I guess I come from the perspective where my mother was absolutely clear that having children ruined her potential career, and so, although I work and enjoy my job (mostly), I also want DD to know that having her was such a breath of fresh air for me, such a joy, and I value the time with her too. That's what I mean when I talk about balance, not that women cannot be as good or as successful as men, but that working does not mean not enjoying children, or having children does not mean being able to work (and be successful). I guess my question was really about how you equip children, girls in particular, with the skills to negotiate the society we live in, and to fulfil their potential - and I appreciate your answering it.

To come back to the OP, I guess for me the biggest misconception about feminism is that we don't need it anymore.

I think that's a core issue, sf. My girls like that I work and now they are graduates I am sure they find the input I can give useful in work terms and of course they have seen me loving my work.

We bought books (some) which showed women as plumbers and doctors from a feminist book club in the 80s. They were a bit over the top and a joke but no different from my sister and I reading out Enid Blyton books to each other in our teens with the genders reversed to show a book cooking and fussing over his frock whilst the girl did the adventures (although to her credit EB did have the tom boy in her books).

I encouraged them to be physically active. They spent their teens 12 hour days at a riding stables for a long period mucking out, being with others, pulling horses around, being active, outside. Not easy to wear high heels and pink dresses when you're pulling a massive horse around.

We obviously talk about gender issues at home, to boys as well as girls of course.

They didn't watch TV in the week for a time only at weekends so the influences were different. Of course that is differnt with their much younger brothers as media is different and they watch much less TV these days anyway.

They see their mother reading the FT every day and enjoying it, not Heat. My own father used to have me read the Times out to him in the car on the way to school each day. Loads of children watch Dragon's Den and programmes like that and have people like Branson and women too as their heroes.

We were lucky to have those Thatcher years of a female prime minister and a female monarch - women in charge although sadly we seem to have gone backwards and I accept there are many left wingers amongst mumsnetters and I always give credit to Cherie Blair who unlike Gordon Brown's wife did keep working whislt her husband was in charge.

Pay for single sex schools where girls are clever and want to do well and parents are less likely to want little girl as barbie doll.

However despite that we own only 1% of the world's wealth so it doesn't seem that the erotic powers bit is that much use to us so perhaps we should ditch that bit for a while whilst we gain 99% of the world's wealth and then had some of that back to men in dribs and drabs when things are fairer. I am doing my bit here.

Some really odd looking perspectives coming through in the last couple of posts...

avaboosmummy women can do everything a man can do, plus carry a child or to put it another way people fulfill the roles biology allocates to them, and are otherwise interchangeable

Xenia Women have double powers - ability to do work as well as men plus our erotic power etc. conveniently seeming to ignore the idea that some women find men erotic... and for good measure, so do some men. And how does the "erotic power" work between lesbians?

Of course. The fact some thinks it is women's right that they get the chance to serve men for no pay at home (deluded though they are to think so) does not change the fundamental principles that people should not be discriminated against on the grounds of their gender, women should be allowed to vote, drive, own property, be paid the same for the same work. Feminists might well not agree on some minor details but the basic principles are agreed by all.

Women have double powers - ability to do work as well as men plus our erotic power etc. However despite that we own only 1% of the world's wealth so it doesn't seem that the erotic powers bit is that much use to us so perhaps we should ditch that bit for a while whilst we gain 99% of the world's wealth and then had some of that back to men in dribs and drabs when things are fairer. I am doing my bit here.

How can 'feminism' be taken seriously when the it is so diverse?
Can it make any valid general points to society when 'feminists' contradict each other?
It sometimes appears fighting for equality while giving women equal opportunity, which to some extent I feel we have acheived in the UK, then takes away some of our 'privilege's as we're too busy wanting to be equal rather then playing to our strengths.
Let's face it women can do everything a man can do, plus carry a child, Feminism seems to ignore this fact and flip it round so it's a negative on women.
Maybe men have acheived the position they have by playing to their strengths. As women have the sole ability to continue the human race you'd think this would be the bigger deal.

Last few posts here make me really cross. One again 'feminism' just show why iy should not be taken seriously by any one.
Why can't we all just live and let live?
If someone wants to stay home with the kids, fie, if they want to make it to the top career wise then that's fine to.
The problem we have throughout society is when individuals think they are 'better' than the next person. No one is better than anyone else.
I'm sure that when we are on our death beds we won't be looking back wishing we could have clinched a few more deals, we'll be more likely thinking of those we have loved and how we'd perhaps give anything to have a bit more time with them.

Yes, I do pay quite a lot of money on nursery fees.

What makes paid work in a professional childcare setting a career opposed to just staying at home and look after your own sprogs is that for the former you need training and qualifications, for the latter you don't.

"Women chained to the sinks" is so 70s Xenia - I think we have moved on as women. Interesting that Hillary Devey from Dragon's Den said there was no glass ceiling when it came to women in the boardroom but she is the only member of her boardroom (she has one child).

Widow: How lovely of you to not look down on nursery staff who take your money, monthly, because for them it is a career option.

Nursery staff, or being a parent who stays at home to look after the children. What's the difference? I bet you pay quite a lot on nursery fees regardless of your work hours.

I think looking after children as a career option is perfectly fine, as far as it's a career which is based on training and education and gets paid.

I certainly don't look down on the nursery staff which does a great job at looking after my children while I'm at work.

TBH I've no problem with parents (note, parents, not women) staying at home while the other works, if they can afford it and both are happy with the solution, as long as they don't use stupid pseudo-jobtitles and refer to themselves as "family managers".

Nothing wrong with being an SAHP, but it's not a career.

Looking after children as a career option is a device to keep women chained to sinks. The suggestion cleaning and child care is hallowed and worthy is a con perpetuated by sexist women and men. They are saying wow whoat a lovely interest job doing that washing, aren't you lucky with thie higher unpaid calling that is so worthy. Don't listen to them. That is a load of rubbish. If the husband thinks cleaning and childcare is so great throw him the mop and skip out to the board room which is heaps more fun.

That looking after children is not a career option.

Agree mmm, I think the f-word used to post the balance every week on twitter for such shows.

I liked the Canadian-Irish woman on Mock The Week the other day.