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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Onside or Not

93 replies

baddancingdad · 17/10/2012 14:15

I started a thread yesterday where I sought to establish the opinions of those here with regard to what I saw as a contradiction between my understanding of human rights and the main stream treatment of gender-related issues. I have had some helpful insights and a fair bit of criticism; I think I phrased my question in a way that some people objected to and I will now seek to remove the thread; thank you to all who responded.

In the thread I was asked by TheDoctrineOfSnatch whether I was feeling more onside and I'd like to answer that question.

In short, no. If anything it is being suggested to me that I am even more ?offside? than I suspected I was. My view, as expressed in the thread, is roughly as follows:

Every human being should be treated equally regardless of race, gender, sexuality or any other circumstance beyond their control. Every human being should be treated as an individual on the basis of their actions and decisions they make.

I thought that my view would be roughly in line with feminism. I thought that the comments and attitudes of many people ? including those in the public eye (an example was provided) disregarded this principle in respect, roughly, of white middle class heterosexuals and wondered, therefore, if feminists rejected these comments and attitudes. I have been informed that I am, however, wrong. Feminism 101 (as it appears to be called) seems roughly to be thus:

Power in the world is governed by a system established by men and this system is known as the patriarchy. The patriarchy ensures powers remains with men and provides them with an easier route through life. This is privilege and it leads to a sense of entitlement. The patriarchy takes strength from gender roles, which seek to place men in positions of power and strength and women in servitude; these roles are reinforced through the use of images throughout the media and in everyday language.

Because of the patriarchy, there are behaviours and attitudes that appear contradictory to me, with my view of human rights, but which are, in fact, not. These have either been explained to me or are demonstrated by the reactions of those posting in the threads.

  • a man?s opinions ? and his judgement of an individual?s decisions and actions - are often flawed due to his privileged position. This precludes men, to some extent, from discussion regarding human dynamics as they will naturally be prone to enforce their privilege. If I question feminism, therefore, I am seeking to continue the oppression of women.
  • If something personal and negative is said, it is relevant who is addressing whom. If I am negative towards a woman, it is a sign of my privilege and belief that I am entitled to remind her of her place below me in the patriarchal hierarchy. If a woman says the exact same thing, it is seen as being rude by the man because he is unsettled to this challenge to his status. It is also only a drop in the ocean when compared to the millennia of abuse women have received.
  • Male-only or male-dominated environments need to be challenged because they are elitist and perpetuate men?s sense of entitlement. Women-only or dominated spaces are a fundamental requirement because they allow women space to operate and think without the oppressive nature of men.

This is my attempt to understand the principles of the 101 and, whilst I think they are relatively well-meant, may in fact be yet more oppressive thought or ?mansplaining?.

BDD

OP posts:
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HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 20/10/2012 12:21

have you been banned ?

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 20/10/2012 12:20

You don't need a new log in unless you have been banned

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 20/10/2012 12:19

check your email

Baddancingdied · 20/10/2012 12:08

Ok, will do. Thank you TDOS

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 20/10/2012 12:06

BDD report your post and ask MNHQ to explain.

Baddancingdied · 20/10/2012 11:49

Hi Ghostship;

To clarify, someone is deleting my registration. I am not changing my name except that my ability to log on I removed I then re- register. It won't accept the exact same user name though, clearly.

GhostShip · 20/10/2012 11:46

If you name change too many times in a short space of time the name change doesn't stick, and reverts back to the old one :)

So you may get a post out of it but then it'll change back

It happened to me anyway Wink

I don't name change anymore though except for occasions like Halloween etc

Baddancingdied · 20/10/2012 11:43

The name change is because it's a brand new log in. Someone keeps deleting me!! I'd love to know why???!

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 20/10/2012 11:39

You have namechanged again on the same thread.

Baddancingdied · 20/10/2012 11:37

Odd indeed. I really am unsure what I've said that anyone could possibly think is worthy of wholesale deletion!

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 20/10/2012 11:30

All his replies on all threads in that name have been deleted. How "odd"

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 20/10/2012 11:24

I think he posted on the same thread in different names.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 20/10/2012 11:09

erm, what did BDD say to get deleted ? Confused

LRDtheFeministDragon · 20/10/2012 10:54

I've reported, just in case it helps sort the issue. Smile

baddncingdad · 20/10/2012 09:32

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HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 19/10/2012 19:51

BDD, why have you altered the spelling of your username ?

baddncingdad · 19/10/2012 19:47

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TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/10/2012 19:41

BDD do you think the non-white people on your team were similarly unaware?

baddncingdad · 19/10/2012 19:15

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baddncingdad · 19/10/2012 15:51

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MMMarmite · 19/10/2012 12:13

cross-post

MMMarmite · 19/10/2012 12:13

"(How would people react if I wanted to start a men's department for the discussion of feminism I wonder?)"

There are already feminist groups for men; here's a list to start with, there are probably more. www.feminist.com/resources/links/links_men.html

"An example of same words, different mouth? I was referring to the original piece by the Telegraph journalist where what she said was called 'just a joke', 'tongue in cheek' and 'ironic' by posters on here. Given the ultra (genuine?) sensitivity of some, I can't believe that they would be so tolerant of those same words from a male journalist referring to women."

I can't find that thread anymore, can't remember what the exact joke was. On jokes in general, context matters. If you're a little clumsy and I mock you for it, it's probably funny. If you lost your job because of your clumsiness, or you got badly bullied at school because of it, then the same joke isn't funny, it's cruel. A woman is more likely than a man to have suffered due to sexism, so a sexist joke about a woman probably hurts her more than a sexist joke about a man hurts him.

baddancingdad · 19/10/2012 11:55

A point I have seen made - which may or not be the one you are referring to* - is that harsh words can be judged in the context of the people using or subjected to them; a man may have the weight of historical oppression behind what he says.

I understand this perspective - and the point has been made well by (I think) MMMarmite or ConsiderCasey somewhere.

That said, clearly this cannot be used as an excuse for plain old bad manners or bullying.

*and if it is, the thread was deleted at my request as I thought it took a fractious turn that my question initial question may have been responsible for

OP posts:
GhostShip · 19/10/2012 11:12

I'm not playing any card.

I'm telling you my experience of feminists on this forum.

But obviously I must be lying because you don't agree with me Hmm

Trying to find the topic in which people argued with me because I didn't agree with being sexist against men. In which I was told basically we should fight fire with fire and the old 'taste of their own medicine' line.

It may have been deleted, but people saw it. And one person who has posted in this topic was involved in it. Back to work now.

FrothyDragon · 19/10/2012 11:08

No, but you're playing the straw feminist card. Which, y'know... Some of us are a bit sick of?

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