Page three

Well I wonder why so many women make the choice to pose for men, happy for them to leer at them regardless of how this affects other women, when men don't seem to want to pose for women with hardly any clothes on. I know there aren't the same avenues available for men to do this, and I also know a lot of women do not find a naked man particularly arousing. But even if there were more ways for men to do this, I think not many of them would make the choice to do so.

"Not every choice a woman makes is necessarily a feminist one. Women make loads of choices which are bad for them, bad for other women or both. Feminism, being political, will critique those choices. To do otherwise, to say something is beyond criticism because a women chose to do it, is silencing and gets us nowhere."

The issue is not that every choice a woman makes must be a feminist choice, but that a woman must have the right to make any choice she wishes to make.

So are you saying that open pornography does not necessarily lead to violence against women? That if we want to eradicate violence against women - or at least reduce it greatly - it is more complex than simply banning porn? I am not expressing a preference; simply trying to understand viewpoints.

I think that Japan is sort of a special case among nations and cultures. It's both connected and isolated, and it has a very strong sense of tradition, yet a love of gadgets and fads. Good behaviour is something the Japanese think is very important, so their crime rate is very low. But then, once they decide that something is permissible, they're apt to do it to what we'd call crazy extremes. Hence the open pornography, or the way Japanese soldiers acted during WWII. No, there isn't much violence against women in Japan, but there have been a lot of stories about sexual harassment and women not being taken seriously in anything but a subservient role--basically Japanese men assume they're in charge to an extent we'd consider outrageous. So, the crime statistics say something, but there's a lot more going on.

Exactly MsAnn !

Not every choice a woman makes is necessarily a feminist one. Women make loads of choices which are bad for them, bad for other women or both. Feminism, being political, will critique those choices. To do otherwise, to say something is beyond criticism because a women chose to do it, is silencing and gets us nowhere.

I'm happy to see the above statement hasn't only peed me off. Sounds so bloody patronising. Next we'll be told to keep our clothes on, stop get men excited, or god forbid coming to climax, save outside of a loving, mutally fulfilling relationship.

"The USA also has 12 times as many prisoners but only twice the population of Japan."

factsanddetails.com/japan.php?itemid=816&catid=22&subcatid=147

Noone has yet answered why Japan has such low crime rate despite having a thriving porn and prostitution industry. And why the US has a lot of crime yet the US has criminalzied prositution and has very prudish views?

Honduras has the highest murder rate in the world at 91.6 per 100k, and Greenland has the highest in Europe, at 19.2. The UK's is actually only 1.2.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Well, we have the highest murder rate then - just as i thought.

Having said before that the page 3 girls do not pose provocatively, this morning, I felt her eyes were a bit too smouldering?? And the reason their nipples are upright, is that they are all young and have not yet - I bet- had children . I had a real shock and both of us had a laugh, when I first saw my sister-in laws nipples , recently- she has always had big bazookas as I call them, but her nipples were tiny petit pois size. Having had 2 10lb babies years ago, I found that astounding. At least they are all natural and not enhanced by silicone, which gives them a completely different look.

it would be nice to see some sexy men naked in the paper, why not

We don't see naked women in the newspaper, because they are only topless. Nakedness is a completely different thing.

PUMPKIN SWEETIE

I agree with all of your posts, but a male page 4, I would find a bit boring, unless he had a gorgeous face and expression in his eyes- I do not think of men as looking sexy. The only time was watching the original CHIPPENDALES, seductively but tastefully gyrating in dance moves. WOW. Even my 70+ mum at that time, looked a bit flushed.

@PlentyofPube

Regardless of places on some table the fact remains Japan has less crime than the UK or the USA (taking population difference into consideration).

The Japanese murder rate is about 1.1 per 100,000 people; West German has a rate of 3.9, Britain a rate of 9.1, and the U.S. 8.7 per 100,000 people.

www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/crime.html

Funny that, given the epidemic of extreme and violent porn Japan produces and watches I would have thought their murder rate would be through the roof.

@TeiTetua
and I'd guess that the women in the images aren't enslaved or trafficked (or could they be?)

Are you seriously suggesting that the women on page 3 aren't consenting and are in fact trafficked? Thousands of page 3 models have appeared in The Sun since Nov 1970 and if just 1 was proven to be trafficked I think that would be the end not just of page 3 but The Sun completely.

Anyway they have no shortage of willing models anyway (every year they hold a "page 3 idol" competition and hundreds of non-professional women send in topless pics of themselves).

Not every choice a woman makes is necessarily a feminist one. Women make loads of choices which are bad for them, bad for other women or both. Feminism, being political, will critique those choices.

Here's a better idea- why doesn't feminism keeps its nose out when adult women makes choices feminists don't like? Isn't feminism supposed to be about choice, or only choices that feminists approve of??

rosebud yes it would be nice to see some sexy men naked in the paper, why not

Not soft porn? I think it absolutely is pornographic. No, it's not in the same class as the sadistic violent end of pornography, and I'd guess that the women in the images aren't enslaved or trafficked (or could they be?) but on the other hand, it's evil on account of how ubiquitous it is. Truly "mainstreamed pornography" which gets shoved at you on the Piccadilly Line while the purchaser reads Page 2.

It's a sign of how low we've sunk to see people calling newspaper porn "a picture of a topless lady done in a tasteful manner".

Kim147, thanks for pointing the link out. I'd managed to find it after I'd posted.

PlentyOfPubeGardens, as Kim147 pointed out, already a topic posted and very little response.

Well, I think "tastefully done" and "not soft porn" are rather ambiguous terms. Page 3 does not usually feature small-breasted women or breasts in non-sexy poses. The nipples are always erect and the women are generally wearing knickers which are considered the type of lingerie likely to arouse men.

For that reason, by arguing that it is OK to have such sexy images in a national newspaper because that it is the choice of the models who do it and the people who buy it and, also, because we must promote liberalism by not banning things, then it must also be OK to argue that pictures of men in states of arousal likely to arouse women are also OK. So would it be all right to have pictures of very young, handsome men with erections (preferably large erections) in a national newspaper? As long as the models are happy to do it and I am happy to buy it, would that be OK?

Presumably, according to the "it's harmless fun rather than porn and we mustn't ban things" argument, my pictures of erect penises would be just as OK as erect nipples in a daily newspaper.

I'm looking........I'm reading.........nope, no erect penises out there........

PlentyOfPube
Whilst men enjoy it & some women and where there is woman wanting and choosing to do it, it will never be stopped.
It's not soft porn, it is a picture of a topless lady and done in a tasteful manner.
There is nothing more beautiful than the figure of a woman and if that woman wants to flaunt what she was blessed with, why not?

I'm a hetrosexual woman but i do not see a problem with it at all.

But why should women who aren't page 3 models have any say?

Because a person's choices have a wider societal impact - in this case it results in women everywhere having to put up with being surrounded by soft porn in public spaces.

Not every choice a woman makes is necessarily a feminist one. Women make loads of choices which are bad for them, bad for other women or both. Feminism, being political, will critique those choices. To do otherwise, to say something is beyond criticism because a women chose to do it, is silencing and gets us nowhere.

Is it worth pointing out that Japan is languishing near the bottom of the tables for gender equality on all sorts of measures? I see no reason why we should be emulating their society.

MsAnnTeak, why don't you start a thread?

Is it worth pointing out the USA doesn't allow breasts in newspapers? The US in general is extremely prudish and is afraid of the female body. Does this prudishness mean the US has low rape and sexual assaults?

Compare Japan for example- Japan has low rape and crime and is thought to be one of the safest developed countries in the world for women. Yet Japan is the opposite of prudish they have a thriving sex industry and they make lots of weird and extreme porn.

zeus4.cms.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/DIAM/japan.htm

Banning things is not the answer.

Nothing wrong with page 3 imo, if these women didn't like doing it they wouldn't be in it!
But on the other hand, a page 4 with a hunk on would be nice

"Girl Shot by Taliban Becomes Hero in Pakistan. Student, 14, who stood up for girls' right to attend school ... "

Thousands of young Muslim women protest. MN Feminism and Women's Rights, not managed to find a post on what I'd presume to be a feminist issue but plenty to say and action to take on banning Page 3 breasts.

But why should women who aren't page 3 models have any say? Surely it should be up to the models themselves?

Isn't feminism about choice? Or is it about making choices on behalf of other women?

I recall page 3 sending some pretty powerful messages to me as a child and a young woman about how I was regarded in society. That's not harmless. Against that, of course, we had a powerful female as PM (whatever you thought of her politically, Mrs T was no simpering sex doll). Young girls today are less fortunate.
As for the "most people" argument, I hate to break it to you Xenia, but there's quite a lot of people who have significant problems with women like you - successful, independent, strong-minded. People think some stupid shit sometimes.