1/2 of all state schools have no girls sitting physics A level

My dsis did a physics degree in 80s where for every 1 girl there were 10 boys on the course. The upside was she was never short of boyfriends

www.cordeliafine.com/delusions_of_gender.html#Reviews

Whoever it was on Radio 4 this morning who said 'Girls don't like doing physics' absolutely enraged me. That's exactly the kind of attitude that adds to the creeping, nasty, sexist, unconscious tide that makes girls think that 'proper' girls don't do physics, or maths, or computer programming. The irony is, she was trying to make the point that teachers are gender-neutral in their approach, and should not be blamed for decisions made by girls. Well, if you create an atmosphere in which you can make a stupid, ignorant, sexist generalisation like that, then you are very much to blame.

If anyone wants to read a much better argument than mine, I can't recommend Cordelia Fine's book 'Delusions of Gender' enough. She patiently debunks the whole 'Girls are good at x, boys are good at y' myth. That Radio 4 woman (can't find out who she was) should be made to read it before she is allowed to open her mouth again.

Freida, a physio.

Casey yy, that is much more likely to be the case, but it would still be interesting to see the differences in brain function of 14 years of socialisation whilst doing abstract exercises.

Kind of links in with what BlueStringPudding sais in her post about the differences between how girls and boys will approach an experiment.

are there less female physics teachers?
maybe its about role models?

I went to a single sex school. There were about 10 of us that did physics A level, out of a year group of roughly 100. There was never any suggestion that it was an unusual subject for girls to like. We had some inspiring female physics teachers which helped enormously.

"Is there any point taking physics though if you don't want to do a physics degree/become a physics teacher?"

I work as a freelance writer. My physics degree taught me how to explain complicated ideas clearly, review scientific literature, understand statistics, and assess the quality of scientific studies - all skills that I use frequently in my work.

I love the bigger picture the big bang theory, partial physics etc are fascinating until you turn them in to maths

couldnt agree more!

I did A level Physics,I don't remember it being particularly abstact - not that that would have bothered me. For the degree I went on to do Physics,Maths,Biology would have been the perfect set of A levels,I didn't do Maths as I couldn't cope with the thought of doing all those topics covered by both courses twice from 2 different angles.
I didn't have any problems with that.
I was in a single sex grammar equivalent school,and my class was maybe 15 people? Not noticably smaller than Biology and Chemistry.This was in the 70's though.

Numerous studies have shown that girls do better in the classroom when boys are not around. This was the reason why my father wanted my sister and I going to all girls schools. He wanted us to explore subject areas with confidence and has already told us that he will back us up financially if we decide to go private with DD. We are in the US and the science provision is not good in our town. We are looking to move to another township where the schools there have a much stronger program from an earlier age.

I went to a private school and out of year of 90-ish there were around 30 taking Chemistry, 35-40 taking Biology and 15 or so doing Physics. Those who were doing Physics did Maths and most also did Further Maths. It helped that the teachers were brilliant and it was considered cool to study science subjects.

just marking my place-doing a PGCE in Physics!

P.s. my issue with A level physics is I was told I'd have to take maths and further maths A level to do it. Didnt enjoy maths so decided to drop physics. Got on fine with my chemistry A level though (even the physical chemistry components)...

Not that sure its much better in private schools. In my private school, I was one of 3 girls taking A level chemistry (in a class of 20), my friend was the only girl taking A level physics (in a class of 12). Conversely there was only boy taking A level spanish alongside me (in a class of 6) and only 5 boys taking A level english in my class of 16.

Even if there were, it wouldn't tell you anything about hardwiring. The human brain is plastic and by 14/15 it's had 14-15 years of socialisation acting on it.

slubber - are you a neuroscientist?

But from a purely subject matter pov why do abstract/mathematical subjects appeal to boys more than girls?

I really struggle with the hardwiring hypothesis tbh, although I am intrigued to know if there are neuro-physiological differences (+/- effects of hormones upon) between the sexes that influence the ease of which new subjects are learnt, and pleasure gained from the process.

I wonder if you asked a large group of 14-15 year olds a load of increasingly hard sums and gave them all a functional MRI scan while they were doing them what the images would look like? would there be a significant difference between the scans of the boys and girls?

Bitchy cliques = girls; 'geeky boys don't expect girlfriends' ... crikey, any more stereotypes you want to throw at that!

Ok, I do get what you're saying, but honestly, I did half my sixth form subjects in a co-ed group and the other half with the rest of my all-girl school (we shared classes with the boys' school for small subjects) - the boys were as cliquey as you can imagine.

I don't think physics is more abstract that pure maths. And I've never been quite clear where the dividing line is between mechanics and physics.

I don't think most scientific girls are bothered by there being not many girls in physics or chemistry classes. I loved it, no bitchy cliques. No fashion and celeb rubbish to worry about. Geeky boys don't expect to get girl friends so they are just friends and lab partners.

I really think there is something in the very abstract nature of physics and computing that doesn't appeal to most Women. Strange as pure maths does have quite a few females.

DH is a total geek and he can get totally engrossed in fine technical detail in a way I can't.

I love the bigger picture the big bang theory, partial physics etc are fascinating until you turn them in to maths.

What computers can do is brilliant, but writing code with all those fiddly rules

I think we most certainly need to encourage girls into physics and computing, but I'm not sure we should expect equal numbers to study them at the highest levels or be found in the most abstract corners.

Perhaps it is hard wired into us to always keep on ear out for the baby crying in the night, so to speak, to not do one thing and ignore everything else around us.

I don't know, it's bloody annoying, a bit of me would still loved to have been an astronomer.

seeker - actually I don't know that many teenage girls which is why I was asking the question. The fact that your DD swapped from her mostly girl school to mostly boy school suggests she isn't initimidated by male dominated environments. Perhaps she just changed her mind about physics.

This site has some interesting information - www.iop.org/education/teacher/support/girls_physics/action/page_41602.html

In the downloadable PDF at the bottom "A Teacher's Guide for Action" there's the observation that "Teachers found that, in mixed groups, boys tended to rush into practical activity while girls often wanted to draw up tables for results or carry out other preparatory work before starting an experiment. This led to a polarisation of roles, with boys becoming the ?doers? and girls becoming the ?scribes?.

Also "The questioning technique that teachers use is a crucial factor in engaging girls in physics. In a mixed class, boys will almost always be the first to respond to a request for
?hands up? to answer a question directed at the whole class. Very few of the teachers who participated in this project used this approach because they were well aware that girls would be less likely to contribute. By allowing thinking time, most of the teachers also avoided instant responses, which typically came from boys and denied other students the opportunity to reach an answer."

Girls also tend to phrase answers in a more consultative way - to allow others present to contribute their ideas too. In a predominantly male environment this can be perceived as uncertainty, resulting in the contribution being ignored. There have been quite a few studies showing that having at least 30% women present (in meetings/ on Boards) allows their contribution to be 'heard'.

I don't think physics is as bad as computing/computer science for gender inbalance. At an international computing/informatics competition last week there were 5/317 female contestants. One of the organisers said for some reason girls just don't seem to enjoy the subject.

I preferred physics and maths when they became more abstract, ie concepts and equations. Rather than applied.

Lots of girls at the top of the advanced subjects. It probably did help that we didn't feel like the odd one out.

I chose an all girls school for my dds for this very reason - sciences. I went to an all girls school where the headmistress was a scientist and although I went on to do very traditionally female A levels - English, History, History of Art, Art - I loved science. My oldest dd is very very keen on science and rather sweetly was completely bowled over by the idea that anyone wouldnt want to do Physics (she's only in year 8).

Startail

"That the problem with Physics, sexist though it is, that sort of dry abstract detail doesn't hold most girls concentration".

but is that true though? Is there something about having an XX chromosome that makes it harder to understand and/or enjoy dry, abstract subjects.
(genuine q btw, am currently studying gene defects causing neurotransmitter related pathologies)

I bet the only one or two girls in the class has a lot more to do with it. And a-level chocies related to career choices (and the gender bias that goes with that)

'dry abstract detail ', Startail? I know what you mean, but to me it always seemed kind of sculptural -- all those wave equations and theories on star collapse and electron banding... and spectra... and diffraction patterns... oooh, I'm coming over all nostalgic here!

Turning any of it into real, practical use without falling off my bike in a distracted haze of diffracted streetlights was more my problem.

Sympathies, Startail! I struggled with the maths by degree level, too (only had A level maths, most people had done further maths as well). Mucking about with lasers making holograms in the dark was HUGE fun though!