1/2 of all state schools have no girls sitting physics A level

That the problem with Physics, sexist though it is, that sort of dry abstract detail doesn't hold most girls concentration.

If its not holding the girls' concentration, it wont be holding the boys' either.

Is there any breakdown of results? I would take a small bet that of the girls who do do physics, more get good grades than boys. Girls who do it are likely to have the ability and motivation; boys are, I suspect, likely to have more of a mix of ability from excellent to scrape-throughs. There were an awful lot of boys in my physics class who got poor grades but they would probably have fared no better, or worse, in essay subjects.

I think what we really need to do is to promote Engineering as a valid and exciting career choice for women

'Engineering' encompasses a huge variety of career choices, some probably more attractive to women than others.

and another one from me then I'll stop

upthread orangeandgold said

That the problem with Physics, sexist though it is, that sort of dry abstract detail doesn't hold most girls concentration.

With the very greatest of respect, I am going to call you on this - what is so inherently different about the female brain that struggles with the maths? I humbly suggest you had a p* poor lecturer and that many physics lectures at degree are entirely chalk and talk with no two way reciprocity.

But that aside - that is degree and this is A Level.

do state schools still do that weird dual science thing?

Some private schools do it too, you know.
The norm is for the top set(s) to do triple and lower sets do double. One supposedly excellent private girls school I know of only offers double science - that really is appalling.

I teach A-level Physics in a girls' school.

We don't have any inhibitions about being female and doing physics. The main impediment to the subject is that there are very few 'must have physics' as a career choice. Mostly it is seen as a great facilitating subject. If students are going for a mixed arts/science portfolio, they will tend to go for Chemistry, as the central science.

I personally think that Physics is by far the easiest of the three sciences, especially if taken just to AS-level

I think what we really need to do is to promote Engineering as a valid and exciting career choice for women. If nothing else, it is a fantastic degree which will open doors.

Thank you for the info!

That is a pity about physics teachers with physics degrees - I'm sure engineers could be great teachers (I'm not knocking engineering), but you'd wish more people wanted to teach.

LRD asked

"Does anyone know what the gender distribution of teachers is?"

No idea! But, I know I am incredibly rare [preens]

Not only am I a female physics teacher - I am a female physics teacher with a pure physics degree. Just physics grads are in the tiny minority - most are engineers of some sort or another.

Phyllis [nods sagely] I am beginning to tumble to the single sex route too (Have a DD and a DS)

grimma very cool! Good on your DD!

nutella this is exactly the kind of thing the IOP are referencing in their report today - how to create a self-sustaining culture.

My education experiences:

State mixed primary in the north east 1989-1993: don't remember doing any science at all. This may have had something to do with the fact that in 1st and 3rd years we did NO MATHS and so 2nd and 4th years were spent desperately trying to get us up to speed on maths.

Selective independent girls' school 1993-2000: hugely science-oriented and with no shortage of girls doing science. All our science teachers were women. I would say that about half of my year group went on to do science, medicine or maths at university. I think at A Level Chemistry was the most widely studied science subject and Physics the least, but there was still a healthy number of people doing Physics. I think (but couldn't swear to it) that we all had to do all three sciences at GCSE - I certainly did - which I'm sure has a huge effect - do state schools still do that weird dual science thing?

Raise your sons and daughters to be feminists and send your daughters to single sex schools, is my motto.

There were a lot of girls in my A-level physics class, but then the school was very strong on science anyway.

Part of the reason for the dearth of girls doing physics A level is the small number of subjects allowed. Girls who are thinking of a science-based career are, I think, more likely to tend to the biological and medical sciences. So Biology and Chemistry are essential; then if you're only allowed 3 A levels maths is probably a better choice than physics. Ideally you would be allowed to do all 3 sciences plus maths. In my day we could only do 4 if they were chemistry, physics, pure maths and applied maths - which, as wanted to do a chemistry degree suited me fine. All the other girls doing sciences did chem, biol and maths with stats. So I was the only girl in the school doing physics, the only one in my set doing chemistry and one other girl did the double maths. Fortunately it didn't bother me at all as I was better than the lads.

But I'm glad my DD decided to go to a girls' GS with a science specialism. They all do triple science GCSE and lots of them go on to do sciences, I think quite a few are allowed to do 4 subjects all the way to A level. AFAIK they have good science teachers (several with PhDs) in all subjects. She's going to do electronics and computer science GCSEs too, lucky child! She's almost bound to head towards some sort of science or engineering career.

I used to hate it when people described physics as "unimaginative" or "uncreative"

Scientists are the most creative people there are. We know that, don't worry about people who say things like this, they are just exposing their own sad ignorance and shallowness.

frieda Oh dear lord [shakes head in bafflement]

I didn't want to carry on with physics at school because it would have meant spending several hours a week in a lab with a hairy teacher with BO and bad breath and an obsession with bicycles and a lot of spotty smelly teenaged boys. Italian with a glamorous lady teacher and fragrant teenaged girls seemed so much more appealing.

This.

I really loved physics. You would have to to get past the above. That makes people like me in the minority. However it is a negative feedback loop - the less women involved, the less women want to get involved.

And don't even get me started about the EU's recent "It's a girl thing" campaign.

And <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.totaljobs.com/careers-advice/job-profile/science-engineering-jobs/~/media/tj/job-descriptions/science-and-engineering/railway-engineer-job-description.ashx&imgrefurl=www.totaljobs.com/careers-advice/job-profile/science-engineering-jobs/railway-engineer-job-description&usg=__Xntu2TzhxWIxqh1Ei5H3QyxPgZA=&h=245&w=360&sz=39&hl=en&start=1&zoom=1&tbnid=78arYkHN-NT8vM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=121&ei=N3BsUIDbE6es0QWS6YHYCQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drailway%2Bengineer%2Bdirty%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz%3D1T4SNCA_enGB348GB351%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this one in fact the only one where they use a woman is this one, and look what they do to <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.totaljobs.com/careers-advice/job-profile/science-engineering-jobs/~/media/tj/job-descriptions/science-and-engineering/railway-engineer-job-description.ashx&imgrefurl=www.totaljobs.com/careers-advice/job-profile/science-engineering-jobs/railway-engineer-job-description&usg=__Xntu2TzhxWIxqh1Ei5H3QyxPgZA=&h=245&w=360&sz=39&hl=en&start=1&zoom=1&tbnid=78arYkHN-NT8vM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=121&ei=N3BsUIDbE6es0QWS6YHYCQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drailway%2Bengineer%2Bdirty%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz%3D1T4SNCA_enGB348GB351%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">her fgs

grendelsmum I cannot speak for other teachers but in my school that simply isn't true.

I am never a day teaching without one practical or another. Also, physics is surprisingly more popular with those that don't need it than do. For example, most are med candidates or PPE. The minority study Engineering where the very few - i.e 1 or 2 in say 60 odd, do a physics degree. Also, please do not assume that talk and chalk = bad. I have seen very ropy lessons involving PPoint. At the highest of levels - say particle or quantum, I find that discussions work best of all. The great danger is when some teachers may choose to explain a concept via the maths only. It is a great temptation.

Please note that I do teach in a state selective.

Of course job adverts like <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.totaljobs.com/careers-advice/job-profile/science-engineering-jobs/~/media/tj/job-descriptions/science-and-engineering/railway-engineer-job-description.ashx&imgrefurl=www.totaljobs.com/careers-advice/job-profile/science-engineering-jobs/railway-engineer-job-description&usg=__Xntu2TzhxWIxqh1Ei5H3QyxPgZA=&h=245&w=360&sz=39&hl=en&start=1&zoom=1&tbnid=78arYkHN-NT8vM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=121&ei=N3BsUIDbE6es0QWS6YHYCQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drailway%2Bengineer%2Bdirty%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz%3D1T4SNCA_enGB348GB351%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this play their part in the problem.

I wonder also if the modular maths teaching has had an impact on general uptake of Physics and Maths for A level?

DD sat her final Maths exam last November. She was then put on a quick stats course. This means that between November last year and the start of AS Maths in September all she has studied is stats. Now I'm not mathematician but I dont think that this is great preparation for maths or science A levels.

I wonder how many students in a similar position lose confidence in their maths before they choose their A levels?

I did physics. It wasn't that hard, memorising equations and then using them as required, though am sure it's different now. The two other girls who were in my class went on to study medicine.

Also you cannot do engineering without physics and there is a WORLDWIDE SHORTAGE OF ENGINEERS - don't think this applies to any other career so girls should definitely do physics.

My dd did physics, biology and chemistry at A-level and has just gone off the uni. She had a female physics teacher who was very supportive of her and willing to put in lots of time outside of lessons, which I think helped a lot.

She went to a co-ed school.

GnomeDePlume - interesting, though I have to say I had the world's least 'chalk and talk' maths teachers, which I guess is why I always enjoyed it so much.

My A level choices (physics, chem, pure maths) were chemistry as I liked it best, maths and physics because I hadn't done O level biology and I didn't think I could handle applied maths as well as pure. So it goes back to O level choices at 14, I chose physics over biology at that point. I think at that stage I was not very in tune with most of my female classmates, I remember feeling frustrated that none of them seemed to have much ambition beyond getting married and having children, perhaps aspiring to be receptionists or work in shops until they had their children (no disrespect to those choices, but they were definitely not for me). Whereas I wanted to go to university and so did a lot of the boys. I think I gravitated towards male dominated subjects as a result, including preferring physics to biology.

GrendelsMum for DD it was the style of the teaching. Not a problem with chalk and talk (DD is a keen mathematician) but just the way that the teacher conveyed the information. It sank in but DD was left with a dislike of the subject.