Abortion to be reduced to 20 weeks

arf @ AThing - it's amazing how many people forget that pregnancy and childbirth poses a serious risk to the health -and even life - of the woman. No woman has ever died during a safe, legal abortion - and lots of women die during childbirth.

I read somewhere that it's 1 in 3 women in the UK who will have an abortion in their lifetimes. That really brings home to me the extent to which we shame and silence women into not talking about their abortions.

Oh yes, I'm sure that's right LonelyCloud - childbirth is still a risky undertaking.

AThingInYourLife

But yes, death during childbirth is still a risk, even if the pregnancy has appeared to be progressing normally.

I may be wrong here, not having statistics to back this up, but I believe the risk of a woman dying as a direct result of childbirth & pregnancy is greater than the risk of her dying from having an abortion.

"Personally I feel that abortion should be illegal unless theres risk involved"

Me too!

Since there is always risk involved with a pregnancy, that means it should be legal in all circumstances.

Glad we've got that sorted.

For what it's worth, my son is a product of rape. He's a very much loved child, despite this. But I chose to keep him.

I'm still 100% pro-choice. I don't care whether a woman has an unwanted pregnancy through lack of contraception, or whether she conceived through rape; if that woman wants an abortion - if she feels she doesn't want, or can't have, that baby right now, then give her access to that abortion. Lets stop pitting women seeking abortion against each other as "more deserving" or "less deserving" of bodily autonomy.

Doctrine, there isn't, obviously, but it's the way anti-choice proponents try to rationalise their views. A baby is only a baby in certain circumstances, so when it's contraception failure or unprotected sex it's a baby but when it's rape or handicapped or there's "risk" it's not a baby, or if it is it doesn't deserve the same protection as an "innocent" baby.

They see birth and adoption as a punishment for bad women who have unprotected sex or whose contraception failed. But they can't square their conscience with punishing a woman whose been raped, or conceived a disabled baby or where there is "risk" (whatever that means) because that is not the woman's "fault".

The seem not to be able to grasp that the baby is 100% innocent in all circumstances, so you are either pro-choice or you are not. Being pro-choice does of course mean that you can decide not to have an abortion when you have an unplanned pregnancy as many women do.

(Waits for a follow-up explanation that it is a case of the lesser of two evils.....it's not a black and white situation...etc.)

Pinkteddy, they are not "going to do it" - this is Maria Miller's opinion.

What's the logical difference between the "baby's body" if conceived via rape vs if conceived after contraceptive accident, please?

Personally, I think they're completely right to do it. And I think you're being ridiculous and petty to say that they are doing it to undermine a womans right to do what she likes with her body. Honestly, excluding cases of rape and when the mothers life is at risk, i think it's very selfish to have an abortion "because it's your body" What about the babys body? YOU made the mistake of having sex with a man unprotected, without suitable contraception and so YOU should deal with the consequences, not your baby. There is allways adoption. Personally I feel that abortion should be illegal unless theres risk involved, or the babys handicapped or the mother has been raped.

Regardless of my opinion on this
Abortion to be reduced to 20 weeks
is not the case. One Conservative MP said this is what he wanted. It's not government policy, it's not the law, it's not going to be law.

Yes, it's interesting sgb - my partner (DH) has always been quite anti-abortion in his views. But having read these threads over the last week or so I now recognise that though I've never had to consider terminating a pregnancy myself I don't need to feel that I share his views - I now feel that I can see things from the point of view of women who have experienced a different life path than I have myself.

Men are, of course, entitled to have opinions on abortion, and to air those opinions. But their opinions are not actually relevant and should carry no weight and certainly have no legal standing. Because abortion is no business of men's.

I like the repeated use of the word "majority", it's an interesting use of word when there are no stats backing it up.

I think what larry meant to write was, "what I think the majority want". Unless of course I've missed the bit where larry was appointed spokesperson for almost everyone.

An annoyance and an inconvenience.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah, no other risks there. Not like my ex's ex-wife actually stopped breathing jut after her second child was delivered. Just a slight inconvenience, mind.

and that pregnancy and childbirth were just an 'annoyance and inconvenience' - that was one of my highlights.

Did anyone else notice "which, again, to repeat as nauseam, is my stance" from Larry ?

It's not so much what he says I disagree with, more the way he says it. Wasn't it him who said "the mere choice" of the woman ?

Slug, please don't question the men on the thread. They have so much experience, doncha know?

The problem is that the majority of women with plenty of experience of pregnancy and abortions themselves are overwhelmingly against the legalisation of late abortion

I wouldn't like a late abortion. I probably wouldn't have one. But I don't want to stop anyone else who needs a late abortion.

I mean, hell... I probably wouldn't want an abortion. But I wouldn't want to stop another woman choosing what to do with her body.

Christ. Anyone would think the pro-choicers were forcing abortions on women....

Yep, definitely no mandatory late term abortions. I'm 100% against anyone having to have an abortion they don't want. With you there.

I agree that the majority don't want late abortion and the majority should absolutely not have one. They would not like it.

Frothy,

I am bowing out here. I am happy to leave it to the women. The problem is that the majority of women with plenty of experience of pregnancy and abortions themselves are overwhelmingly against the legalisation of late abortion (which, again, to repeat as nauseam, is my stance).

You will just have to accept that the majority of women don't agree with you. Of course, you probably believe that 90% of women are willing handmaidens to the patriarchy (which, of course, is not condescending or anti woman).

Don't be silly. Knitting needled mean nothing to Larry, a man who will never know the reality of dealing with a pregnancy first hand. (Your wife having been pregnant doesn't count here, Lazza.)

Anyone else notice the irony that most of those on the pro-life side of the argument tend to churn out victim blaming at some point as well? It's all that autonomy thing, innit?

Your point about curtailment of rights is true Larry. But what you miss is whether you as an individual has any say over your choice to restrict your rights by virtue of your actions.

So this is true:
You have a right to free speech but not if it causes hate crime. Your rights have been infringed. It does not make you a non human

But not relevant. In your example, you are choosing to exploit free speech in order to indulge in hate crime. Women who do not want to be pregnant did not choose to be pregnant but they find themselves having their rights curtailed anyway. Rights that can be curtailed without your say so are not rights.

"Laws are for the tiny minority of people who decide to act against societal norms.

I think this is way too simplistic.

Laws exist for all manner of reasons and they are both subject to cultural influence and able to exert cultural influence. "

True, but that is the justification for them.

I don't think anyone would argue against having laws in order to have faith in people's decency and common sense.

. Once a woman is pregnant she cannot just decide not to become pregnant.

Ummm, knitting needles mean anything to you Larry? Women who do not want to be pregnant will go to extraordinary lengths and put their lives at risk not to be pregnant, if they have to. Or we can ask drs (very nicely) to assist.