Abortion to be reduced to 20 weeks

Although 23/4 weeks is technically the start-off point for viability, babies born at this stage don't survive without MASSIVE intervention. They will require ventilation in NICU & a hospital stay of 10-15+ weeks. And very likely have disabilities. If they survive at all.

It's only really above 32 weeks gestation that survivability & a reduced disability rate become possibilities.

And believe me, as the mother of an ex-premature baby, that these babies SUFFER in NICU - we're talking ventilation without sedation, lumbar punctures, bacterial infections.

So I don't think the argument should be about visibility, but whether the mother wants the baby (or not). Just because a baby could potentially survive at great cost doesn't mean women should be denied terminations.

Yes Narked I see what you mean about being a straw man but people are actually saying that it's fine to abort at 40weeks etc. Doesn't matter that it's rare, the fact that someone would think that that was ok just feels me with

I don't think it should be reduced to 20 weeks.

I think the limit for abortion should be when the fetus can survive outside of the mother without major medical intervention. I don't know what point this would be, but it would have to be the point where the baby could be delivered without major cost to the NHS.

I'm very pro-choice, but the thought of aborting a full term, healthy, baby is horrifying to me.

I mainly mentioned the young people and sex ed in the Netherlands because it's part of a positive attitude to contraception, sex ed, and availability of contraception generally over there and in several other countries. Also what we learn when younger we remember and influences us for many years. Also you say "over half of abortions are carried out for women over 25" so nearly half are under 25 I assume.
Still, some interesting information that I'm willing to take on board.
But I'm likely to hold to my views in the middle ground of this debate as far as I can see.

If you removed the women who have abortions after 20 weeks for medical reasons, I think you'd mainly be left with women with severe substance abuse issues and chaotic lives.

I don't think she should be referred to a counsellor. I think she should be offered a counselling appointment.

I don't think it's the only feminist stance. Also, I think it's something of a straw man. If women have free and open access to abortion for 24 weeks, the idea that they are going to suddenly decide to terminate at 32 weeks for non-medical reasons is absurd.

Can I ask...What is considered a 'social reason' for an abortion? Does it mean "I already have two small children, and couldn't cope with another" type of situation?

Narked - in fact, wasn't a thing a few weeks ago that said more women in their 30's are having abortions then ever before?

I hate this 2 doctors nonsense. If a woman goes to her GP to ask for an abortion, she should be referred to a counsellor for a wee chat about it, and if she still wants to go ahead, then there should be nothing in her way. It's her body.

Reading this thread has been an eye opener. I think the limit should be based on scientific evidence about viability.

I'm sad to hear women described simply as vessels, as if being pregnant and carrying a child is some sort of cold transaction at the end of which a baby appears.

Is it really the only feminist stance that women should be allowed to terminate as and when they wish?

Are babies simply seen as leeches or parasites sucking the life out of a pregnant mother? (technically I'd say no, babies aren't parasites as they're not a different species nor do they benefit at the expense of the mother unless something goes wrong).

Nature is such that for the human race to continue, women carry and grow babies. It feels wider than being about just the woman.

To me, feminism should be about asserting the rights of women, particularly where they are limited on the premise that we have vaginas and breasts for no logical reason. Abortion, however, is wider than that because it is about other human beings. Yes they are dependant on their mothers but you can't just write them off and ignore it.

Adding to what Narked has posted, I don't know the statistics for the UK but I heard that 3 out of 5 women seeking to terminate a pregnancy in the USA are already mothers.

When I think of women having abortions I don't think of feckless teens. I think of women like me: who know their bodies, families and finances can't support an unplanned extra child.

15% of abortions are carried out on girls under 18 in England and Wales.

Here

Over half the women having abortions are 25 or older

Over 30% are 30 or older

77.7% of abortion took place at < 10 weeks

91.1% of abortions took place at < 13 weeks

98.6% of abortions took place at < 20 weeks

'The Netherlands etc are much better than us in the sexual education of their young people'

Why are you asuming that it's 'young people' having abortions

Married women in their 30s also have abortions.

My 20-week scan was inconclusive in some areas and I had to go back the following week for another.

Wouldn't have left much of a window for me, and I'm sure it's not uncommon.

Juggling did you read the BPAS audit linked above?

Also, no, the NHS could not guarantee getting all scans in counselling done referrals made and abortions carried out in a two week period.

I think those who argue the 20 weeks is enough time to decide etc miss a few valid arguments.

I'm in NI, where I would most likely have to travel if I chose to have an abortion. I'm a fairly sensible 38 year old and when I had my first child I didn't realise I was pregnant until about 8 weeks or so. If I chose abortion, I would need to save for procedure and travel and accommodation if needed, organise time off work, think of plausible excuses as to where the fuck I was.

I also think those who feel uncomfortable about abortion should think long and hard about eroding the rights of women. I have seen friends petrified on ferries, borrow money, lie, do it all alone - in a part of the UK.

Could there be a 19 week scan for anomaly and say a 21 week limit ? ( A 2 week period for decision making and counseling for all involved ? )

I think the logical limit to abortion has to be around when the baby could survive if born, or possibly depending on it's level of development. So, I'm in favour of a reduction in the limit to 20 weeks.

Personally I'm pretty much mid-way between pro-choice and pro-life ( a rarity I think - but moderation in views can be a good thing IMHO)

I'd like to advocate for greater awareness, availability, and use of contraception - as in the recent Gates campaign. In addition to this as necessary more early abortions rather than later ones. Let's talk more !

The Netherlands etc are much better than us in the sexual education of their young people.

24 weeks is there for a reason. Lots of issues only show at the 20 week scan. This is a push to chip away at rights by first targeting the edges of the law. What % of abortions are carried out between 20 and 24 weeks for non medical reasons?

I know someone who earlier this year had to terminate after their 20-week scan showed such severe foetal abnormalities the baby would be unlikely to survive birth in the unlikely event they made it to full term.

This was a very much wanted and planned for first baby for the couple and they and their extended family were utterly devastated and heartbroken.

The last thing we need is the limit lowered to 20-weeks so others in this horrible position don't have the 'luxury' of a brief period of grace/counselling before having to go through such a traumatic ordeal.

I see what you are saying Blackcats, but it isn't a medical decision where the cut off for abortion is.

If you decide that the cut off is viability, then the Royal College can advise on the point at which that occurs. That is a role they are well equipped to perform and I understand that their opinion that there was no basis for changing the limit was in answer to the question whether there had been a material change in the point of viability.

But there is nothing inherently 'medical' in deciding that the cut off is viability. You could, for example, equally say that the cut off is the existence of a heart beat. Or viability without medical intervention. Or 'quickening'.

The decision what you use as a trigger will always be a political decision.

I think the limit is right.

The law has to be based on medical evidence and not feminist (abortion to term) or pro life (no abortion)dogma. The Royal college of gynes and obsys stated that there was no case to reduce the abortion limit from 24 weeks.

The medics have decided that viability should be the deciding factor.
A 24 week fetus can survive with intervention a, 20 week fetus cannot. If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant at 30 weeks, then remove it and put it in an incubator and have him/her adopted. (though `i can't see many medical professionals agreeing to do that). (and as a mum of a 30 week prem baby I wouldn't want the baby to suffer the way my DS did).

i agree that some professionals can be difficult when they disagree with abortion. a relative of mine, 16yrs, fell pg. she made the decision to have an abortion at about 7wks after lots of talking and thinking about it. her doctor made it very dificult to have an abortion and she finally has to have a surgical abortion at 15 wks! It would have been much less traumatic earlier on.

I am anti-abortion for any reason other than medical, particularly when the pg could have been prevented but respect other womens choices. this was an eye opener, to see how a healthy but unwanted pg can affect a woman.

i'd like to see the time limit lowered but the system made quicker and easier.

At a personal level, I do not think I could ever consider an abortion (except possibly where the feotus had a condition incompatible with life). I also don't feel personally comfortable with the MAP, or the standard coil. That's my emotional response to my own body.

BUT at a political level, my views are totally different. I think that the current limit is fine. I don't understand the obsession with the idea of viability outside womb. It may be possible to save some 24 week babies, with massive medical intervention and often long term health problems, but why should that have a bearing on the deadline for termination?

I also agree that the two doctor thing should be removed, to allow more women who want abortions to have them faster.

Two doctors is basically a sop to right to lifers; if you have a few anti-abortion staff in hospitals, you can get issues with timing.

YY onemorechap. That was my thinking when I said people who put up arguments actually want to ban abortion but don't like to frighten us by coming out and saying so.

I suppose I should have said some people. But there are a lot of them about and they're able to pose as reasonable, especially when dealing with people who aren't good at standing up to authority particularly at a vulnerable point in their lives.

That's most of us at some point or other.