Abortion to be reduced to 20 weeks

paramount: chief in importance or impact

If the rights of the woman are paramount then it does not matter whether the fetus has rights or not, the mother gets to decide.

Personally I'm not keen on the fact that you are calling her "the mother" - the whole point here is that a woman wants an abortion in order to not be the mother of this potential child.

Blackcurrants,

This thread concerns whether to reduce the legal term for abortion. It is therefore about law and whether there should be one. What do you think this thread is about?

As a possessor of a human body, I feel that it is entirely my right to comment on what people do to other human bodies, albeit small ones.

My position is hardly pro-life so I am not extreme. I merely believe that there should come a time in pregnancy where the rights of the foetus are considered and the rights of the mother, whilst paramount, are not the sole consideration.

I agree.

I would prefer to live in a world where abortions are available for those who want them than to live in a world where abortions are not allowed.

Therefore abortions are a good thing.

Abortions make the world a better place.

YY to this

This isn't about wrangling over if a foetus is a person or how bad we personally feel about the idea of `12,20 or 24 weeks - do we say to women "actually, this isn't your decision, you can be forced to be pregnant and give birth against your will" - or do we say "I trust you. It's your body. You own it and get to decide what happens to it" ?

I am going to come out and say it. Abortions are a good thing. Not "sad but..." or "well, maybe in this case it's different". Just a good thing. Not a compulsory thing and not something that everyone should do. But a good thing that's available in the world if you want it. You wanting an abortion is a good enough reason to have one and for the rest of us to say "You chose your own destiny, I'm pleased that we live in a world where you can do this".

And to reiterate what I said on the thread earlier, we should really be applauding those women who have multiple abortions, not demonising them. They know they don't want to be or are not able to be a mother to a child. We should view that as a powerful and humane decision. Multiple abortions cannot be physically easy and that situation is unlikely to happen to a woman who is wholly in control of her life. So hats off to any woman in that situation if she still has the wherewithall and clearsightedness to take control of her life by deciding not to add an unwanted child to the mix.

As a possessor of a uterus (which is in fact irrelevant to my opinion) I respectfully suggest that it is not anyone's business to tell someone else what they can and can't do with their own body - whether you would choose to do that with yours or not.

Thank you for mansplaining that to us larry.

However, as a non-possessor of a uterus I respectfully suggest that it is not your business to tell women what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

I am confused as to why you keep comparing a legal medical proceedure which thousands of women undertake every year, to a criminal act.

Is it just to be inflammatory?

Blackcurrants,

If I posted a thread about theft, for instance, I would read many devastating stories about people having to steel a loaf of bread to feed their family and my heart would feel for them as I have never been that desperate or in that position. That does not mean that no people steel for bad reasons. Ditto, I cannot imagine anyone posting on one of these threads that they managed to procure a late abortion because they had just started a new relationship and their partner did not want the baby. I am 100% sure that that kind of story is very very rare although I have no idea exactly how rare but I am equally sure that it does happen. You cannot imagine making that kind of decision as you are not that kind of person, nor can I. The law exists for those rare cases where people decide to step outside societal norms.

I consider myself lucky in all sorts of ways and, in another life, maybe I would have been someone who felt forced to do things which society deemed unacceptable. That is not a reason not to have laws.

larry if you have read this thread or the one rumbling along in AIBU, there are some very, very brave women who have posted their late-abortion stories. I think you'll find that no women feel that they 'choose' to have late abortions - they feel compelled to end a wanted pregnancy by devastating medical news, of ten they decide to prevent the future suffering and death of a longed-for baby. Very, very few abortions happen after 12 weeks, and those that do are generally unhappy stories. Why should those families be punished by making it harder to abort, because you, me, or anyone else 'can't imagine' their situations? We should think ourselves lucky we can't imagine how awful it must be.

Blackcurrants,

Most of us cannot imagine being thieves, pirates, blackmailers etc etc. Most people are decent. That is not an argument against laws, in fact it is the reverse. Laws are to protect society and individuals against the few rare exceptions who do choose to make poor, selfish and immoral decisions.

The fact that very very few women would choose to have a late abortion is not an argument against having a law against it, more the opposite. The only argument for allowing very late abortions is if you buy into the argument that a foetus is not a human being until it is born. Personally, I don't. For most people, abortion is a balancing of the woman's and the foetus's/baby's rights and that means it being time limited unless the woman's health is compromised (as the law is at the moment).

Miss there are lots of things I could never imagine doing, but my imagination is not a basis on which to make laws about what other people can and cannot do.

After all, it was people who 'couldn't imagine' being gay who made gay sex illegal for so many years. Living in society requires that one doesn't legislate away the choices of others just because their choices are unappealling.

In certain circumstances i agree but i meant for someone to just think i dont want this baby anymore because someone has changed there mind or its not the right sex there r some sick minded people out there or people to young to understand. When it comes to health issues then thats understandable. So the abortion should be reduced to 12 weeks. I look at a scan picture of my baby at 20weeks and i could never imagine having an abortion

I think the vast majority of women decide whether to progress with a pregnancy or not very quickly. I decided within two weeks of finding out. If someone only requests an abortion around the 20 week mark they must have good reason? Don't they have to actually go through with a birth at that point?

'Don't have sex' is such an odd and simplistic thing to say to an adult. How about - use contraception?

It is cetainly a very important issue for many voters. Some will pick their vote based on abortion concerns which is probably why it's better if the Government leaves well alone.

Islam is not as strict at Catholicism on this or rather has a different view:

"Muslim views on abortion are shaped by the Hadith as well as by the opinions of legal and religious scholars and commentators. In Islam, the fetus is believed to become a living soul after four months of gestation,[1] and abortion after that point is generally viewed as impermissible. Many Islamic thinkers recognize exceptions to this rule for certain circumstances; indeed, Azizah Y. al-Hibri notes that "the majority of Muslim scholars permit abortion, although they differ on the stage of fetal development beyond which it becomes prohibited."[2] According to Sherman Jackson, "while abortion, even during the first trimester, is forbidden according to a minority of jurists, it is not held to be an offense for which there are criminal or even civil sanctions. On this understanding, Muslim-Americans who oppose abortion should assiduously limit their activism to the moral sphere and avoid supporting positions that favor the imposition of criminal or civil sanctions in an area into which Islamic law itself never contemplated injecting these."[3]"

So they are saying four months - 17 weeks.

BBC Breakfast today had a discussion on reducing abortion to 12 weeks, did anyone else see that?

Jeremy Hunt wasn't on, they had a different Tory MP who was a member of the parlimentary pro-life group instead. I didn't catch his name.

I buy the TImes and subscribe to it on line.

Given politicians have always had a free vote on this issue and the Tories do not intend to bring abortion law changes forwards it was a fairyl pointless headline. The Times had secured an interview with Hunt although there was nothing interesting in it about his business career up to when he entered Parliament nor revelations about his time in Japan nor marrying his Chinese wife in China realyl so the journalist did not really did out anything of much interest. I suppose the only nugget was about the 12 weeks limit which as he is a man married to someone from a culture which routinely kills more baby girls than anyone on the planet at almost all stages of pregnancy is not really much of a nugget.

Did anyone read The Times today? The front page appeared (read as I passed by on the way to the checkout) to be entirely about slating Hunt on his stance. A tag line under the headline said something about "an insult to women" and the article appeared to have three female authors. But I didn't get a chance to read more than a few words, and I feel dirty if I actually buy a News International paper, so I wondered if anyone else saw it...

Oops, spooned the link:

In her blog post 'No, actually, I won't be ''even handed'' when it comes to debating abortion rights'

Ahh, Glosswitch is on the case.
In her blog post [['No, actually, I won't be ''even handed'' when it comes to debating abortion rights'

She writes

Harking back to Bill Clinton?s ?safe, legal and rare? ideal, there are a whole host of pro-choicers who are more than happy to reveal their moral qualms, as though this somehow backs up, rather than undermines, their case. 'I?m pro-choice but I?m not happy about being pro-choice.' This always strikes me as disrespectful to the women whose choices we seek to defend. We have chosen to put their bodily integrity first. Let?s do it properly, bravely and honestly, with faith in these individuals and their decisions, and not with sad, disapproving eyes. Our abstract regret betrays, not some hidden ?truth? about life, but an ongoing expectation that these women should be giving more than anyone has ever had the right to ask of them.

I love this. This is how I feel. This isn't about wrangling over if a foetus is a person or how bad we personally feel about the idea of `12,20 or 24 weeks - do we say to women "actually, this isn't your decision, you can be forced to be pregnant and give birth against your will" - or do we say "I trust you. It's your body. You own it and get to decide what happens to it" ?

When it boils down to it, I trust women. And that's why I am happy to be pro-choice. And so, from now on I'm going to push back a lot harder in conversations about this. It's not my right to force women to be pregnant and give birth against their will. It's not anyone's right.

I agree Slug - I have a similar job!

Just to clarify: not implying that being academic is only down to learning and remembering (just in case colleagues are reading )

I totally agree two gold. I work in a university and I deal daily with PhDs who can't follow simple instructions or who have the emotional literacy of your average piranha.

People can be academic, ie. good at learning/remembering things and thick at the same time IMO. He is an example of this. No emotional intelligence whatsoever.

Hunt has a first class Oxbridge degree so it may be a little unfair to suggest he is thick.

He is thick to make such a silly comment and expect it to slide, as Minister of Health just because he says that it's his personal opinion.

Thick as champ. Ha ha Wigglesrock. I have never heard that from any of my Irish family. I am totally stealing that one for my own use.