Violence Against Women

"No. I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion FoodUnit, but I am certainly not making wild assumptions."

Comparing feminist critique of transsexuality to religious fundementalism and right-wing extremism is chock-full of wrong and insulting wild assumptions.

"I am reading the posts from the OP and I disagree with her. I'm putting my opinion forward, is that alright by you?"

Opinions are good - sweeping mischaracterisations and insults don't sit quite so well.

"I believe that people can certainly feel that they have been born into the wrong body and feel desparately unhappy and want to make changes that mean that they can live happy fulfilled lives."

Yes, but that's not what you said in your post. You said something very strong, dismissive and silencing.

"There's been a parcity of facts on this thread actually. Pretty much all of the facts have been opinions floating around the internet."

No - I've told a few 'facts' one of which is that I am a woman, I've given birth, and all the other reproductive signifiers that define me as a woman. I dispute the assertion that it is a 'feeling' or a 'state of mind' that makes me a woman.

"'You can't actually just shoehorn feminist critiques of transsexuality into 'religion versus gays' like that.'"

"Yes you can."

No you can't, since they don't actually fit .

But as a device to silence critique - insults like this thrown around can get past the majority of people's 'reality-checker' so can often work. Doesn't mean its actually true though.

No. I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion FoodUnit, but I am certainly not making wild assumptions.

I am reading the posts from the OP and I disagree with her. I'm putting my opinion forward, is that alright by you?

I believe that people can certainly feel that they have been born into the wrong body and feel desparately unhappy and want to make changes that mean that they can live happy fulfilled lives.

There's been a parcity of facts on this thread actually. Pretty much all of the facts have been opinions floating around the internet.

'You can't actually just shoehorn feminist critiques of transsexuality into 'religion versus gays' like that.'

Yes you can.

Both inde and Nola you are making wild assumptions based on very different situations. It is mischaracterising to compare right-wing extremists and religious fundementalists with people that just want to get a few facts straight.

"It's just like watching a load of Christian fundamentalists argue that homosexuality is a disease because the bible says so. Well we know their attempts to convert gay people to the righteous way doesn't work. So has there been any significant success convincing trans people that there is no such thing as feeling that you are a female in a male body and that their problem is really caused by the patriarchy? I say significant because I'm sure the anti gay brigade can perhaps find one supposed success out of a hundred or more."

You can't actually just shoehorn feminist critiques of transsexuality into 'religion versus gays' like that. It is arguing from an entirely different axis and perspective.

Religious patriarchy has put a lot of constraints on human behaviour claiming 'God's will' is behind their assertions. There is no proof for God and no proof that any person knows what Gods will is, even if God does exist. However it is provable that homosexuality exists( and occurs in other species too).

Feminist critiques of transsexuality occur over the very definition of what a woman is (not whether women exist or not). There is a word for ova producing adults - women. Transactivists want to say that it is not the case, there is actually something to do with a feeling that makes a woman. This is weird because it means that although I menstruate, have given birth and breastfeed - since I have a strong aversion to my gender role - I might actually 'not be a woman'. This is the mindf*ck. This is where it is like speaking to the Flat Earth Society who are in denial of a few basic facts.

I agree inde. I'm pretty sure the anti gay lobby bang on about "biology" too. I think they're full of it as well.

It's utterly depressing to read this sort of thread, especially as a feminist.

BTW if such therapy did work then it would be great. Anything that makes these people happy with the body that they have been given would be fantastic.

It's just like watching a load of Christian fundamentalists argue that homosexuality is a disease because the bible says so. Well we know their attempts to convert gay people to the righteous way doesn't work. So has there been any significant success convincing trans people that there is no such thing as feeling that you are a female in a male body and that their problem is really caused by the patriarchy? I say significant because I'm sure the anti gay brigade can perhaps find one supposed success out of a hundred or more.

"you mean disagree based on a political ideological viewpoint that I do not share"

No that is not what I mean. I mean point out all your factual inaccuracies, arbitrary assumptions and logical inconsistencies. No ideology necessary.

And by pull it apart and demolish, you mean disagree based on a political ideological viewpoint that I do not share. Carry on at your leisure all it proves is that those who are driven by ideology of any type are not worth listening too.

"Nah FU your a big woman now I am sure you will figure it out."

Erm by 'figure it out' do you mean pull it apart and demolish each of the wrong assumptions and logical errors that it comprises? Because although I am big and clever enough to do it, I don't actually have the time or inclination.

Nah FU your a big woman now I am sure you will figure it out.

EBAL Thats great fantastic we are all individuals, I very much agree with that. So as an individual some one comes to a women only space as a woman but still with the genitals of a male you would have no isse, becouse they are individuals, they have made a choice about what sex they wish to be.

"Being whatever gender, or acting as one sex or another is as much a state on mind as it is what you have in your underwear."

I must say though, that when I gave birth, it wasn't a state of mind that the babies came out of. It would have been a lot less painful were it the case.

"Sooo the norms then, women cannot be men, men cannot be women they stay exactly as they were born and thats the end of it. This seems too be the outcome of what Eats has just said. No do not even try and justify buy arguing gender and that cannot be changed. Being whatever gender, or acting as one sex or another is as much a state on mind as it is what you have in your underwear."

Leithlurker you'll have to rephrase that in a way that actually makes sense before I can respond.

"Feminists are some of the main activists trying to change these cultural norms"

Sooo the norms then, women cannot be men, men cannot be women they stay exactly as they were born and thats the end of it. This seems too be the outcome of what Eats has just said. No do not even try and justify buy arguing gender and that cannot be changed. Being whatever gender, or acting as one sex or another is as much a state on mind as it is what you have in your underwear.

"You could of course leave transsexual people alone and let them get on trying to sort out their lives. In the face of loads of prejudice and anger and hatred."

I take exception to this post, since your first comment was in response to my talking about anorexia, self-harm, mental health and the 'physical benefits of surgery'. This could hardly be me 'not leaving transsexual people alone' [insinuating harassment?], since I wasn't even talking about transpeople in that case. Also I have never responded to a MN transsexual thread before, but this one was labelled as being about Violence Against Women.

Although LRD and Eats have answered this already, I want to point to further mischaracterisation in your statement kim147.

I know that people who are 'different' or 'gender-defying' incur a whole spectrum of difficulties up to an including violence and even death by people who are heavily invested in cultural norms, for various reasons. Feminists are some of the main activists trying to change these cultural norms and end male violence (which is usually what is targeted at people who are 'different' as well as towards women). However I have seen with my own eyes transwomen get preferential treatment when they are amongst women - there's a certain 'celeb-like' mystique and maleness that throws women into excessive gratitude.

Also 'trying to sort out their lives' sounds very benign and unassuming, when it is bizarre that a huge focus of transactivism seems to be eroding women's rights by redefining the meaning of 'woman' and legally challenging protections arising as a result of female reproductive vulnerability and low social status. Of course not all transpeople are part of this activism, but as a movement transactivism is a huge issue for women and feminism.

I thought the point of this thread was to talk about how women are "mutilating" themselves in order to become men and how this translates as VAW.

Which is clearly bollocks.

They are not what?

So was this the point of the entire thread then, to come back to a discussion that has been had very recently in which several radicle feminists were accused of being offensive and bigoted? In essence how very dare people who still have a willy try and get in to female only spaces, despite those willy wearing people identifying with and as women.