Violence Against Women

That is me silencing you both

Nola and Food - with respect, you are not discussing but bunhurling, can you desist?

This confuses me:

The idea that trans erodes the concept of what a woman is.

Surely there are so, so few that it makes zero difference? Like, you could literally ignore them if it makes you feel uncomfortable? This is like people campaigning against gay marriage because it undermines marriage between a man and a woman - the natural order of things, if you like. The natural order will always allow some deviancy, it needn't be a threat to the status quo unless you let it be.

Your truth is not necessarily The Truth FYI. I note that you've chosen to ignore the rest of my post which is asking you to retract your many insults thrown in my direction.

It boils down to telling me to STFU by accusing me of "silencing". Irony.

Why is 'helping transpeople' being prescribed as my cause? I'm a feminist not a transactivist.

Which comes back to what has been said already that these people have real problems and shouldn't be used as political footballs because they don't fit with your view of the world. If you are not interested in helping them then that is just what you are doing. If the treatment that they are getting is wrong then the backlash will come from trans people.
My main reason for taking part in this thread is that I seen someone saying things about trans people as if they are facts. When asked to back up these "facts" they can't. That isn't right and is unhelful to these people with real problems. Whatever the root cause of that problem is.

FoodUnit It is mischaracterising to compare right-wing extremists and religious fundementalists with people that just want to get a few facts straight

compare with;
"Listen FoodUnit, you're always banging on about feminism; let me help you out here. The facts are..."

Second is mansplaining.
First is?

"There you go. And I am literally laughing at your assertion that your opinion is the only one of any value."

Okaaay.. So you laugh at the idea that the truth has value in its own right?

So laugh at science, laugh at justice, laugh at reality itself... A bit weird that you'd ever try to enter a debate on anything at all if you think the truth doesn't have value.

Pls stop throwing buns

""No apology for all of those baseless accusations you chucked in my direction then?"

Such as?"

"So you've accused me of insulting, silencing, mischaracterising and being dismissive because I have read the entire thread and can see parallels in the way the OP has "discussed" the topic and the way that religious groups talk about homosexuality and you haven't even seen the whole thread?"

There you go. And I am literally laughing at your assertion that your opinion is the only one of any value.

Dear Lord.

I think I disagree with EBAL (although you haven't posted enough of your reasons for your stance) and FoodUnit (who has posted eloquently of hers, thank you) because I think instinctively that there is a lot more to being a woman than being able to reproduce. I agree with you FU that the debate centres around the definition of womanhood. I just think the divide between the sexes is not as strong or immutable as your position holds. I think as I posted upthread, that there are grey areas.

Surely being a woman is a lot more than reproductive capability? Even if a lot of characteristics of an average woman are caused by her reproductive abilities, as a man's nature is strongly affected by his hormones due to his own reproductive capabilities? Testosterone causing aggression and so on. If a woman had much much higher levels of testosterone than the majority of other women, regardless of patriarchy she would always act more like a man. This would make her identify more with men, no?

I can't understand the need to erase gender actually, I am a feminist but I can't accept this idea that the only difference between men and women is willies and vaginas - it's so much more than that, surely?

"I can see how your opinions fit in to your view of the world and that's fine but has this viewpoint ever actually helped any trans people?"

Why is 'helping transpeople' being prescribed as my cause? I'm a feminist not a transactivist.

"No apology for all of those baseless accusations you chucked in my direction then?"

Such as?

"I'm particularly fucked off with being accused of "silencing". I am very well aware of what you mean by that and I resent it thoroughly."

My intention is not to f*ck you off, but to stop the silencing nature of sweeping statements that draw unflattering and unfitting parallels,

"The argument that you are making is based on your own personal feelings, I am able to open my mind a little bit wider than basing the world around my own experiences."

No my argument is based on facts, empiricism, but also knowledge gained from others, also other methods of deduction. There is no vague 'feelings' at the base of my opinion. In fact my 'feelings' tell me to let transactivists have their way and re-define what it is to be a woman, since I am moved by the emotive nature of their pleas, but facts are more trustworthy. And that's what I choose to hold to. It is my opinion that the truth has value in its own right.

nola, it's a bit off to pretend your subjective opinions are somehow more informed than food's just because you don't like what she has to say.

It does come across as if you're trying to make out you have more right to be heard than her, TBH.

Your argument is just as much (or as little) based on 'personal feelings' as hers is.

EBAL - 'We should all be able to act as the individuals we are and be treated as individuals'

Well, yes, I agree with you there. Can you extend the courtesy to transsexuals though?

'But as a device to silence critique - insults like this thrown around can get past the majority of people's 'reality-checker' so can often work.'

Some 'critiques' deserve to be silenced. Sometimes, 'critique' is a euphemism for 'attack'. Using the word 'critique' does not make a persons viewpoint more palatable or correct.

No apology for all of those baseless accusations you chucked in my direction then?

I'm particularly fucked off with being accused of "silencing". I am very well aware of what you mean by that and I resent it thoroughly.

The argument that you are making is based on your own personal feelings, I am able to open my mind a little bit wider than basing the world around my own experiences.

Foodunit

I can see how your opinions fit in to your view of the world and that's fine but has this viewpoint ever actually helped any trans people?

"you haven't even seen the whole thread?"

Perhaps some more posts have been deleted since I read it, but there were a few that had been taken out on the first page when I first read it.

My point is that the definition of what a woman is, is being eroded (this is getting waaaaaaay of topic since the thread is about FTMs).

If being a woman defined by having a strong feeling that you are a woman. Maybe I am not a woman then, since I don't have a strong feeling I am. It has just been the combination of what I was defined at birth as and actual events concerning my reproductive capability that make me sure I am a woman. But since I don't have this defining strong feeling a woman is supposed to have according to transwomen, maybe I am actually a man.

Because I'm not one. I'm surprised you're finding this hard to grasp.

So you've accused me of insulting, silencing, mischaracterising and being dismissive because I have read the entire thread and can see parallels in the way the OP has "discussed" the topic and the way that religious groups talk about homosexuality and you haven't even seen the whole thread?

Very good/

"I am a woman and have given birth and have a vagina as well. I am not a transexual. What's your actual point?"

What makes you not a transsexual?

"You saying "You can't..." in relation to debate seems far more silencing than anything else really."

Maybe I should have said 'it would be incorrect to'... still means the same thing.

I didn't see the deleted posts myself.

I am a woman and have given birth and have a vagina as well. I am not a transexual. What's your actual point?

You saying "You can't..." in relation to debate seems far more silencing than anything else really.

It comes to something when the people posting on FWR who I have always considered to be skating pretty close to misogyny are actually the ones sounding vaguely reasonable in comparison to the utter shit stirring posts.

I read those deleted posts Foodunit. I saw what the OP said and believe me they made for grossly offensive reading.