Violence Against Women

"How offensive! Do you have stats to back this up? How many convicted sex offenders are trans? And, I hate to play the homophobia card, do you feel "safer" knowing that lesbians can use these areas too?"

Being a lesbian doesn't make a woman more likely to be a sex offender. I think something like 98% of sex offenders are men.

You are no safer in a public loo than anywhere else.

I said some women feel more vulnerable, not more safe.

Don't we preach that the onus is on the attacker to not attack?

Don't know how this fits.

Sorry about your experience of male sexual violence

I doubt that the prevalence of this kind of threatening sexual deviance is lower in the born males who transition to transwomen, or indeed 'identify' as women than the rest of the male population

That is by far one of the most offensive things i have ever read on MN.

Do you have evidence to back up this unsubstantiated claim or is this JUST an opinion. If it's opinion....it has no place in public.

Kim, I just wanted to say, this most make terribly hurtful reading, you show real stoicism and strength of character. I wish you all the very best with the op and the job hunting, for what it is worth I think many of us in FWR DO accept you.

And I've ranted and done a postvomit, which is why I tried to leave the thread.

I'm really going now

doubt that the prevalence of this kind of threatening sexual deviance is lower in the born males who transition to transwomen, or indeed 'identify' as women than the rest of the male population.

How offensive! Do you have stats to back this up? How many convicted sex offenders are trans? And, I hate to play the homophobia card, do you feel "safer" knowing that lesbians can use these areas too? You are no safer in a public loo than anywhere else. Don't we preach that the onus is on the attacker to not attack? Utterly ridiculous. And its not a case of "being cool" as a survivor of abuse and rape, I know full well that its not a ladies sign that will stop a rapist.

blame & Eleanor

Whether either of you are happy sharing loos with men/ or males-to-transwomen, your personal reasons for being cool with it don't mean that all women have to be cool with it.

There are a significant number of male sex-pests, harassers and pervs out there in the world who scare and hurt women (and since many women feel vulnerable in public toilets, bumping into such men there would be more frightening than in the street). I doubt that the prevalence of this kind of threatening sexual deviance is lower in the born males who transition to transwomen, or indeed 'identify' as women than the rest of the male population.

I think it is fair to fight for unisex loos for transpeople and people who don't care either way, but I don't think it is fair to say that women cannot have their own loos.

But its ok for US to oppress transgender people who don't fit in with either sex?

You're going to have to help me out, because I'm really struggling to see how this can be justified.

Like I said, I understand the need to keep rape cris women only centres and womens aid for women born only. I don't like it, but I do (although it does raise concerns for the victims of abuse and assault within the trans community) but what else is an issue? Changing rooms? Why? Considering most have cubicles (which, I have always used due to my own issues) toilets? I've shared loos with men with penises my whole life, it doesn't affect your vulnerability. You lock the door.

I don't get it, and its clear, to me at least, that this is down to the prejudices of individuals, and a "why should we care about you as WELL?" Attitude.

"we can't demand equality for ourselves and to be treated with respect when we dismiss the feelings and needs of a group even further in a minority and also victims of oppression"

Women are the oppressed majority not minority and I think women have every right to put ourselves and our own rights first for a change (especially as part of our oppressive conditioning is to believe we do not deserve to put ourselves first). This does not mean marginalising women who experience other intersecting oppressions though.

Its not logical to assert that women have to concede that men can equally call themselves women in order to demand equality with men.

Sorry this article

Late to the party a bit, but that article you posted previously FoodUnit about a male-to-female in a women's prison is written in a real Daily Mail esque style to garner as many shocked readers as possible. Reading between the lines isn't hard. In fact reading the actual lines is telling enough.

If you cba clicking: I asked if there were incidences of mtf trans trying to get access to women-only spaces. This article is about a rapist on a life sentence. He was pre-op trans (following an abusive childhood) and was raped repeatedly whilst in the men's prison, which resulted in him contracting AIDS. He castrated himself with acid whilst in prison. Now in a women's prison, partly for her own safety and partly because she has pretty much transitioned, causing catsbums all over the US.

From the article:

"In a letter to the judge, Masbruch said he was repeatedly sodomized while in the Texas prison and had contracted AIDS.
He also said he had “great remorse” for his crime and asked for forgiveness. His letter read: “In an attempt to make amends with my conscience, I have tried to castrate as well as remove my male sex organ.”

I don't think this is a brilliant example tbh, I feel very sad for her and think the women's prison is clearly the right place for her.

It seems like the transactivists have really got some feminists on the defensive, which seems so ridiculous. I don't get why they weren't allowed in, tbh - if their behaviour / motivation was dodgy, they could have been chucked out, surely? It does seem that all trans are being tarnished by the actions of a few, tbh.

"That is only if you believe that all oppression stems from this sex class binary opposition between Male & female. The fact is that it doesn't, which is WHY trans people are subject to abuse and discrimination"

That doesn't logically follow.

Acknowledgement of structural oppression along the lines of reproductive dimorphism doesn't preclude acknowledgement of structural oppressions along other lines such as race and class.

"patriarchal oppressive relationships that follow the lines biological dimorphism"

That is only if you believe that all oppression stems from this sex class binary opposition between Male & female. The fact is that it doesn't, which is WHY trans people are subject to abuse and discrimination.

"However, there does seem to be a willingness on the part of some radical feminists to see all trans people as a single malevolent and/or seriously disturbed group, and to deny their experience of life by an appeal to gender theory. I find this hard to take for the reasons Kritiq has given above."

I don't define all transsexuals as transactivists, and I know there are transsexuals who actively hate the way these people that are supposed to represent them behave.

But I think those transactivists have a very loud voice and their messages are picked up and reinforced by people who believe they are simply defending your ordinary Joe/Jane transsexual.

I do understand your point wrt certain women-only spaces. in particular rape crisis centres, womens aid etc. but surely, the answer is to try to create a safe space for all, so that a M-F trans can get help for sexual abuse or violence without having women tell them that they are just suffering from a delusion or a psychological disorder, and men abusing them?

we can't demand equality for ourselves and to be treated with respect when we dismiss the feelings and needs of a group even further in a minority and also victims of oppression.

thats just how I see it.

"Now if having a "third" sex whether that be at some point in the future or whether you assume we already have with people who identify as Trans"

We already have 'intersex' people who are third sex. They are assigned as one or the other though.

"we no longer have a simple binary opposition between two sex classes. maybe that is not such a bad thing after-all?"

As long as the actual binary sex-based oppression had been eradicated then it doesn't matter how many sex-classes there are. Though it might be handy to have a word for 'woman' that was actually meaningful beyond a chosen identity - eg- in a breastfeeding support group.

Until that point, saying "transitioning erases structural oppression piff paff poof" is just window dressing of actual patriarchal oppressive relationships that follow the lines biological dimorphism.

There are some horrible transactivists out there, and it is easier to understand radical feminists' attitudes to the issue when one is aware of the sheer aggressive nastiness displayed by some transactivists in recent years. The recent conference in Manchester (I think) which got shut down because transactivists objected to a single born women-only session for victims of sexual violence is a good example.

However, there does seem to be a willingness on the part of some radical feminists to see all trans people as a single malevolent and/or seriously disturbed group, and to deny their experience of life by an appeal to gender theory. I find this hard to take for the reasons Kritiq has given above.

"not just yours - have been vile and hurtful. and you know it."

I haven't written anything vile, although I admit it would hurt someone invested in transitioning. The worst thing I said, was about the horse thing, but that wasn't directed at transsexual people, just disagreeing that we can self-identify the categories we fit into (and I took it to an absurd level to illustrate it because being more subtle in previous posts wasn't getting the message across). If it were possible, then structural oppression couldn't exist.

I too have found myself diverging from people I have previously agreed with.

They actually

"Completely changing the definition of man and woman to have nothing to do with reproductive dimorphism, is a completely different situation, with huge implications. Including the erasure of the hugely structured actual oppression of one sex by the other to the point it cannot be analysed or challenged"

If the oppression of women is rooted in sex class difference it sets up a sex class binary which can never be overcome unless we all morph into
a third sex class where there are no differences!

Now if having a "third" sex whether that be at some point in the future or whether you assume we already have with people who identify as Trans, we no longer have a simple binary opposition between two sex classes.

maybe that is not such a bad thing after-all?

Or is it that some self styled Radfems want to perpetuate the binary opposition that can never be overcome because the actually revel in victimhood?

yes, bigot. transphobic, whatever you want to call it.

its a shame, because ive usually agreed with your posts, but Im pretty shocked at the lack of empathy and respect that has been shown, not just by you, and feel very sorry for kim and any other transsexuals who may be reading this.

I cant help feeling that, in the desperation to uphold feminist theory, some posters have been wilfully cruel and offensive. The theory is interesting, and something that I am conflicted on, myself, and have never thought about in much detail, but some posts on this thread - again, not just yours - have been vile and hurtful. and you know it.

as I said, for the greater good, and at any cost.
I just feel its a bit too high a price.