Violence Against Women

Mme Lindor - EBAL said that she was 'kind of' a medical expert- she didn't say that she was an expert on trans issues, on FtM operations, on feminism or anything else. I have no idea what you do EBAL (and sorry for talking about you in the third person!). I also have no interest in speculating or questioning EBAL on wherein lies your expertise.

There are a lot of women who consider FTM gender reassignment operations as misogynistic and a form of male establishment violence against women.

That's nice of you to say, Mme Lindor, that you used to slow down and read my posts. I don't really see debates as having 'sides' as such - indeed, I try very hard not to and generally just say what I think.

the concept of anything as a journey, other than an actual journey, is strange and annoying in its everywhereness at the moment

from BBC world news to tales from the national parks, follow me on my bbc4 journey this evening

"I'm also finding the concept of feminism as a 'journey' or something one has to 'learn' as very strange." And the rest of that post.

Lordy, Beach. Really? That's a fairly clear indictment of people who wish to come on here and learn a bit, including myself as a man.

I am hoping you don't actually mean that.

I'm also finding the concept of feminism as a 'journey' or something one has to 'learn' as very strange.

Women don't have to learn about women's issues - we live them and experience them. Feminism has never been an academic subject.

Of course there is brilliant feminist analysis, that puts into words in an incisive, trenchant and coherent manner what many of us experience and feel - and it is vital that women can read and use that analysis if they want to.

But you can have a strong 'handle' on feminism without ever having read any texts. Thank god.

A lot of the radicals I know, were always radicals, they didn't graduate to radical feminism. It was perfectly obvious to them before they even knew that that was what it was called.

I don't know beach. It seems like you are reading a different MN than I am tonight.

My problem (and I speak only for myself here) with this thread is that Eats said that she was an expert and has been unwilling to back up that claim.

I think when someone claims to be an expert on something as controversial as this, then they should be able to converse knowledgeably about that topic.

And not insist that she is right and everyone is wrong based on a blog post, that has no neutral scientific base.

I'm quite sad actually, to find that in the last few weeks that I'm often on 'the other side' of the debate to you. Your posts were those that I would slow down and read when scrolling a thread.

of course not Beach, but the STFU isn't aimed at the subject per se, it's prob. aimed at 'say something new because this stuff was worked through ad nauseum fairly recently, thank you very much'. Which the OP doesn't seem to care much about.

Well, again, Pan, I don't see things that way.

I'm of the opinion that it is important for women to explore women's issues. Simply, without tone policing.

Of course there are always going to be disagreements on the subject.

I'm just [bemused] by the STFU here that doesn't seem to be about the actual subject.

People don't disagree with feminism because it is simple, straight forward and instinctive surely? I imagine they disagree because their experience of life has lead them to hold different opinions - which is fair enough.

Simple, Eats? As someone said v wisely in this section, "If all you have is a hammer, then everything must look like a nail".
No sophistication, no accounting for individual experience, no ability to be generous in spirit, no finer filigree of the human experience.
Just a hammer.

Well, lets face it, Beach it was never "happy days", as you say - people's knowledge and posting styles had always been brought into question round here. And a fair amount of v unfair and belittling swipes were meted out.

And on the topic here, yes the radical feminist 'position' as expounded on FWR is simple. It's just that numerous posters disagree/disagreed with it. Largely because, imho, it was just that. Simple.

"without their tone/posting style/etc being policed?" no but their opinions were policed if it didn't fully accord with one or two posters.

Dunno about that Mini.

I'm just thinking about when the section first started and how it was ok to just, yunno, explore stuff.

Happy days....

"without their tone/posting style/etc being policed?" no but their opinions were policed if it didn't fully accord with one or two posters.

I'm not trying to stop you say you think someone is parodying feminism LRD.

I'm saying I don't see it - just giving my opinion. I'm not saying it's 'not there'. I'm saying I don't see things that way.

Feel free to disagree. No skin off my nose - am not All Knowing and In Charge of Feminism. LOL.

Just glad to see actual women's issues being brought up on this forum and as to why there seem to be so many STFU posts.

beach, it is rather inconsistent to claim you don't see something (therefore it cannot be there?!) and to claim you want everyone to be able to express themselves.

Either try to silence other posters by denying there's an issue, or go for free speech ... you can't do both, I think!

Well I'm not seeing a parody of feminism, radical or otherwise.

Does anyone remember way back when this forum first started that it was a place where women could express themselves about feminist subjects without their tone/posting style/etc being policed?

It is one of the things I like about most of the feminist spaces I have experienced - women are allowed to express themselves in an instinctive grass roots sort of way.

Beach
it isn't about not being well read enough - I will admit to not knowing enough about this topic - but about not setting oneself up as an expert when one is nothing of the sort.

beach - the issue, as I'm certain you know, isn't to do with anyone thinking you have to know a certain amount to be a radical feminist. In fact, as you know from my posts on this thread, I think it is just fine to be at a learning stage.

What is not fine is to parody radical feminism.

That's fairly simple.

I thought we'd put a stop to the 'you haven't read enough/know enough/been a feminist long enough to discuss these issues' type nonsense.

Radical feminism is straightforward and simple - you don't need to be well read or any kind of expert to get it.

The issue that some feminists have with FtM transgenderism is very simple. It is controversial but simple.

Eats
LRD didn't ask you for personal details. She asked you to share your source of expert information.

If you insist that you are right, and that you are an expert, it is only fair that we get to read your 'evidence' and then present you with arguments against your thinking (if there is any).

I am not well read enough to debate the patriarchy with you, but from what LRD and others have written, you do not understand the basic principal -- the patriarchy is a social system, not an old boys club.

I am still a 'feminist with L plates' - there is no shame in admitting that there are parts of the feminist theory that I haven't yet explored. You post a lot of questions about feminism, which is why I had assumed you were in a similar position of starting out, but then you confused me now by saying you were already an expert.

Perhaps you are simply a faster learner than I.

I asked you for links to the research papers.

You gave me links to the blog.

I have asked you time and again for proper links to journal articles not found on that blog.

I am sorry, but it is very clear you have not read originals, or you would be able to provide me with this information.

I'm not in the field, and I have already said that, so don't pretend I claimed to be.

However, as you would know if you were an expert, many people do have access to free online journals. I wanted a link to one. You weren't able to provide it.