Violence Against Women

So are you happy for young women to have masectomies, take hormones and have disfiguring genital surgery because they want to behave or dress in a "masculine" way. Because that is what we are talking about here.

I am happy for people whio feel that they were born the wrong sex to have surgery that will make them happier.

EBAL - I think you may be Doing Feminism Wrong...

Well exactly.

I'm just confused by this thread.

EBAL you have posted a pretty standard feminist (although controversial in status quo terms) opinion on a subject that is integral to feminism.

I get your opinion and I think it is an instinctive one that many women/feminists hold.

Are people just uncomfortable with the subject because it is controversial (in patriarchy)?

Feminism has certainly been a journey for me. From being frustrated in school, to accepting that looks are an issuie when hiring waitresses, to annoyance at the way that people dismissed me, tio reading threads ion here. I have changed my opinions on so much. And learnt. And I am passing that on to dh and ds.

But I don't pretend tio be something else.

beach - the issue is what I've said it is, TBH.

I'm sick of answering questions on the subject. Read the thread.

Well that's a fairly benign interpretation of this particular thread's OP. Nicely, it could be seen as "here's an XY proposition. Discuss whilst I am away." sort of thing. A little arrogant possibly, and fairly rude and certainly superfluous give recent history here.

eats isn't pretending to be mega-well-read in feminist theory, nor are people disagreeing with her.

Well what's the issue then?

EBAL as far as I can see you post cryptically on fairly typical subjects that come up in feminist discussions and expand when questioned. Seems fair enough to me.

LRD it makes me kinda sad that women need to hear that they don't need to have read books or be academic or have spent a lot of time on a journey of discovery to get feminism.

Feminism belongs to us all - I don't imagine any one here would try to claim that an illiterate woman cannot understand women's rights. Would we?

I've got to say, it is really nice to hear that, beach.

I wish I had known that sooner, or heard it sooner, from an influential feminist.

I don't think that is the issue here, though, honestly I don't.

eats isn't pretending to be mega-well-read in feminist theory, nor are people disagreeing with her. It's a red herring.

But Pan, I didn't say that every woman should know anything.

Nor did I say that there is no need for a 'journey' ever for anyone.

I'm just objecting to the idea that 'feminism is a journey' in general. My experience and observation is that 'ain't necessarily so.

Just another simple idea.

Mme Lindor that's nice again to say that you have learnt stuff from my posts on MN.

I can assure you that I am an instinctive feminist.

I have read a bit but what i have read didn't 'teach' me anything - it helped me express what I lived and observed and knew.

I love reading well written feminist analysis - not because it gives me ideas or introduces me to unknowns, but because it lets me know that I am not alone in my thinking and gives an eloquence to gut feelings, instinct and lived observation.

Women's rights have always been about women's lived experience.

Books give us the vocabulary and rhetorical tools to express that lived experience.

Yes, Beach I am trying to understand what you are saying, fwiw. And I do see, and know, family and friends (female) who 'know' stuff and are assertive enough to practice it, (both my sisters for eg) without the back up of 'theory'. We all know them. It's your questioning that every woman should know this, and have no need for a 'journey' and enquire on here, when we live in a society that tells them something else.

Well, Pan. Are you really trying to understand what I'm saying?

I think Feminism belongs to all women.

It belongs to poor women, defavourised women, illiterate women, women as a group.

There doesn't need to be a journey or book reading or debating on MN to get women's issues.

For some women, it may be a journey or a learning curve. For other women it is obvious and as plain as the nose on their face (often because such women have been shat on good and hard by patriarchal society).

It's great when people want to learn about something and read and bolster their instincts. It isn't a requirement of feminism though.

I too am investing in Beach that she didn't mean all that she indicated.

I love the idea that none of us have to learn, that we all know what we're talking about automatically.

However - as I well remember you saying, beach, when the MRAs were constantly detracting from the topic with basic, annoying 'what about the menz questions, it is deeply annoying to have someone who asks constant, basic questions while pretending to be a learner, and then turns round to take the piss. That is rude. It is offputting to everyone else who wants to talk.

Um. Have to disagree, again.

Of course we should 'live' feminism but we have to be made aware of certain issues first

I had no idea of the feminism / trans issue till I read about it here. Just one example of many.

People like you, and LRD and SGM have taught me loads.

when I say everywhereness I mean ubiquity

on my journey of vocabulary