Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Violence Against Women

514 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 30/09/2012 12:27

Just been reading this blog post which talks about women who Transition as violence against women. I agree with her.

[Warning from MNHQ - this contains graphic images]

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/transition-violence-against-women.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheDirtFromDirt+(The+dirt+from+Dirt)

OP posts:
OTheHugeManatee · 01/10/2012 22:57

Is 'scruting' a word?

Confused
EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:56

There have been no studies that show this that stand up to even the most basic level of scientific scruting. Tell me the study you are thinking of and I will explain why it is rubbish.

And that doesnt detract from the illogicality of the position here. Either women only space doesnt matter at all - bathrooms, sexual abuse support groups should all be men and women together, or it does matter and trans should be excluded.

OP posts:
OTheHugeManatee · 01/10/2012 22:55

Ooh and great post, KRITIQ. The idea that feminism is not a journey also puts me in mind of those theological doctrines that privilege revelation over canon, meaning that the most important thing is not what you've read or whether there are facts that support your assertions, but the force of your conviction and the persuasiveness with which you can transmit it to others.

kim147 · 01/10/2012 22:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:52

Yes my w key keeps sticking.

OP posts:
puds11 · 01/10/2012 22:51

Eats, there has been genetic studies conducted that do show that the chromosome balance in transgender individuals is different to that of a 'normal' male or female.

So who are you to dictate that this is a physiological disorder, when it is more likely a genetic mix-up resulting in a person who is not more one sex than the other, but who lands somewhere in the middle ground and makes a decision based on their own feelings, which sex they feel most associated with.

kim147 · 01/10/2012 22:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OTheHugeManatee · 01/10/2012 22:51

'Omen only space' - a safe environment where demonic offspring of the Great Satan can express themselves free of oppression from the virtuous?

Grin
EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:51

But if you think there is no issue for a man with a willy being in a womens toilets, who does it matter if they identify as trans are not? It doesnt logically make sense. Either you object to willies in ladires toilets or you dont? And if you dont then all men and women should use the same bathrooms.

And lots of trans dont pass

OP posts:
HoopDePoop · 01/10/2012 22:49

Interesting post KRITIQ I agree that fundamentalism is not the way forward.

HoopDePoop · 01/10/2012 22:48

Of course not, don't be obtuse. Men as a class, women as a class - there is room for the quirks of individuality, no?

They're not sexual predators, they're trans.

And having a willy doesn't make you a predator anyhow. In the loos there would be a chance of my DD seeing a willy, but in any other actual real situation, ok it's be slightly unusual to have a trans who didn't 'pass' in the midst, but no reason to have a freak out about it Confused

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:44

Hoop if you think it doesnt matter then surely you think there should be now omen only space? So you would send any girls you have/had into a men's toilet if the women's toilet was busy? After all as you said, they are only willies.

OP posts:
KRITIQ · 01/10/2012 22:42

Hmmm. I realise I will probably be taking this thread on a tangent somewhat, but it has meandered considerably already.

I am I believe older than most of the contributors to this thread and have been involved in some form or other of feminist activism for over 30 years. That doesn't give me any special status or authority, but I have had the opportunity to observe the evolution of the feminist movement from both a personal and a theoretical basis. I don't assume nor expect that anyone else will agree with my impressions.

Thinking back 20 - 25 years ago, I joined together with feminists who came to the movement by many paths and represented many different facets of feminism. There were often lively discussions and sometimes disagreements. Collectives could be hell or heaven depending. :) However, there seemed to be at least a willingness to focus on common ground we did share. Yes, it did include radical feminists, or at least women who saw themselves as radical feminists at the time.

I can never recall, however, any examples where representatives of any section of the movement trying to exert their superior status, claim exclusive entitlement to the term "feminism," nor condemn other feminists as ignorant, fakes, puppets of the patriarchy or in the other patronising terms I seem to hear from some quarters now. I've pondered a bit where the chauvinistic approach of some radical feminists might be coming from. As I said, I don't expect they or anyone else will agree on my "take," but what the hell, here it is!

I think in times of economic austerity and social unrest, it's not unusual for social, political and even faith movements to "turn more inward" than they would in less unsettled times. When the world outside is insecure, you want to know who you can trust and take comfort from being amongst other believers. To be sure who is "one of us," movements become more prescriptive about what behaviours and beliefs are acceptable and not allowed. Another way to mark who is "us" is to define who is "them," and a quick and easy way to promote unity is to depict "them" and the characteristics they embody as inferior or even better, as threatening to "us" in some way. Sometimes, condemning "them" appears to become more important than promoting whatever it is that brought "us" together as a movement!

My hunch is that this is what is happening recently in some quarters of radical feminism.

I think trans women serve as that "unifying pariah" for some radical feminists at the moment. Transmen are also sometimes targeted (but more along the lines of patronising and pitying - they are all just misguided/deluded Lesbians who refuse to accept their "true" identity who are exploited by the male medical establishment,) and also bisexual women, who've demonstrated that they can have sexual/romantic relationships with women so have absolutely no excuse for having any sexual/romantic interest in men.

It's interesting that Beachcomber says she doesn't understand the idea of feminism being a "journey," that it is something you either accept, chapter and verse, or you don't (and therefore have no right to call yourself a genuine feminist.) The approach makes me think of some fundamentalist Christian denominations that insist the only way to salvation is to follow their creed without deviation.

It's also interesting that there seems to be the suggestion from Eats and Beachcomber on this thread at least, that having that "faith" in the ideals of radical feminism is more important than having evidence to substantiate what you believe.

HoopDePoop · 01/10/2012 22:41

The lines between being a man and a woman are a lot finer than you seem to think Eats , unless you're talking about gender, which in a patriarchy the lines are obviously very distinct. It's not actually that far to become a man, but obviously means a lot to people who want to have the necessary physical changes.

And really, if it matters so much because people with penises can access things designated just for women, still why does it matter? Confused they're only willies.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

kim147 · 01/10/2012 22:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kim147 · 01/10/2012 22:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:31

Suicide rates of Trans people who transition go down initially and then climb back up to pre transition rates. This treatment doesnt work!

In terms of why it matters, it matters because under UK law anyone who is Trans man who says he is a woman, can access female spaces. That means men who say they are women can use female bathrooms, communal showers, attend sexual abuse support groups, etc.

And 75-80% of Trans people never have genital surgery. So in most cases we are talking about a man who still has his penis.

OP posts:
HoopDePoop · 01/10/2012 22:29

Also, just want to applaud LRD's posts on this thread - I think you always tread such an excellent line of disagreeing politely with people in this section without ever being dogmatic or rude Smile

HoopDePoop · 01/10/2012 22:27

I wish you could focus on the individuals concerned rather than the stress it places on your own personal politics.

V rightwing and narrow-minded to think it's a wrong thing, the end. It's not your life, why do you care so much? It's like it makes you physically recoil and threatens your very existence - I can see why many posters arecomparing the demonising of trans to homosexuality, it threatens systems or something to some feminists - I just don't understand why it matters so much! Live and let live, no?

If I don't have to be well-read to be a feminist, my instinctive feminist and human response to someone who wants to transition would be to support them, as it must be hellish. Aren't suicide rates amongst transpeople sky high? Have a heart.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

kim147 · 01/10/2012 22:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:22

Kim I am well aware Trans people have a wide variety of views. There are Trans people who think it is a psychological disorder and that you can't change sex and who agree with radical feminists.

OP posts:
inde · 01/10/2012 22:08

I hope you do have qualifications to come out with all this stuff EBAL or some properly researched evidence to back it up not just here say off the internet . These are real people with extreme problems and I would hate to think they are being used as a political football to suit your agenda.

kim147 · 01/10/2012 22:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Swipe left for the next trending thread