Violence Against Women

EBAL

Your posts on this thread put me in mind of Alex Jones of infowars. He continuously spits out "facts" with nothing to back them up simply because what he is spouting suits his political agenda. If you are going to make out you are an authority on these issues about real people with very real problems you could at least say either what your qualifications are or provide links so we can see whether what you are saying is based on valid research. If you don't you just come over as another internet crank like Alex Jones.
After all I could cut and paste plenty of information off the internet to "prove" that homosexuality is a treatable disease. The people who say such things are doing it not because it has an basis in facts but because it suits their particular agenda and as far as I'm concerned it's playing games with peoples lives.

Beachcomber Mon 01-Oct-12 19:23:12
I'm also finding the concept of feminism as a 'journey' or something one has to 'learn' as very strange.

Women don't have to learn about women's issues - we live them and experience them. Feminism has never been an academic subject.

Of course there is brilliant feminist analysis, that puts into words in an incisive, trenchant and coherent manner what many of us experience and feel - and it is vital that women can read and use that analysis if they want to.

But you can have a strong 'handle' on feminism without ever having read any texts. Thank god.

A lot of the radicals I know, were always radicals, they didn't graduate to radical feminism. It was perfectly obvious to them before they even knew that that was what it was called.

here you go Beach, HTH

Oh, look, here is what I actually said

Beachcomber Mon 01-Oct-12 19:39:22

Well, Pan. Are you really trying to understand what I'm saying?

I think Feminism belongs to all women.

It belongs to poor women, defavourised women, illiterate women, women as a group.

There doesn't need to be a journey or book reading or debating on MN to get women's issues.

For some women, it may be a journey or a learning curve. For other women it is obvious and as plain as the nose on their face (often because such women have been shat on good and hard by patriarchal society).

It's great when people want to learn about something and read and bolster their instincts. It isn't a requirement of feminism though.

KRITIQ, you know, recently, in every one of your posts that I read you take a pop at radical feminists.

In fact I tend to skim over your posts nowadays because of it.

Imagine if I were to give my (negative) opinion on sex positive feminists or socialist feminists every time I posted. And imagine if I were to do it in an authoritative and 'I'm an old hand at this' sort of way. I find it rude and divisive and I'm not sure what you are hoping to achieve.

I disagree with what you claim about radical feminist analysis of trans issues. Trans women are not a 'unifying pariah' the analysis is a lettle more sophisticated than that - I suspect that you are familiar with radical analysis of the subject so I'm at why you should choose to misrepresent it.

It's interesting that Beachcomber says she doesn't understand the idea of feminism being a "journey," that it is something you either accept, chapter and verse, or you don't (and therefore have no right to call yourself a genuine feminist.) The approach makes me think of some fundamentalist Christian denominations that insist the only way to salvation is to follow their creed without deviation.

Then onto this - firstly, could you please not speak about me as though I'm not here. It is othering and marginalising to talk about someone in the third person rather than address them in the usual manner. I'm on the thread Kritiq.

Secondly, why are you speaking for me and claiming I have said things that I have not? If you don't understand what I mean why don't you ask me to clarify rather than giving your own (incorrect and twisted) strawman version of what I posted. You have made a load of crap up and are now trying to pretend that I said it. Please quote where I say on the thread that one is not a genuine feminist if you don't accept ideas chapter and verse .

Thirdly, comparing a person to religious or fundamentalist groups as a marginalising and othering technique is as old as the hills. It is also a thoroughly unpleasant way to go about having a feminist discussion IMO. (Especially when the views you are claiming to be fundamentalist were never actually expressed by the person you are attacking but made up by you in order to attack.)

It's also interesting that there seems to be the suggestion from Eats and Beachcomber on this thread at least, that having that "faith" in the ideals of radical feminism is more important than having evidence to substantiate what you believe.

Here we go again. You are claiming I have said things I have not and are attributing opinions I do not hold, in order to present me to others as irrational and of blind faith rather than rational, analytical and capable of critical thought.

In fact the majority of your post is a long winded personal attack.

I had to point out to you the other day that you were claiming people had said things they had not, on another thread. And so I'm asking you to refrain from doing this to me again and to either stick to what I actually say or leave me alone.

EBAL I'm curious about your thoughts on people born with male and female genitalia. Should they be allowed to use public toilets and rape support centres?

KRITIQ, her response was kick-ass, I loved it. And I thought Original Dumbo Reddit poster was pretty sincere in his belated realisation of his Dumbohood and his apology too.

Oh yes, and you said above "It is blindingly obvious most of the time of a man who has transitioned to a "woman" is a man. You can see it in the shape and size of their body, their voice, the shape of the face, etc."

Any thoughts then on the surreptitiously taken photo posted by some dumbass Reddit member of Balpreet Kaur, aiming to poke fun at her "masculine" appearance? Would you say it is "blindingly obvious" from the photo that she has been identified as female from birth?

One of my High School English teachers had a very, very deep voice. I can hear it in my mind now. On the phone, she was almost always mistaken for a man. So is voice really such a reliable indicator whether one is male or female?

My former boss, female, was 6 ft 2 inches. A male colleague who recently retired would have stretched to make 5 ft 2 inches. So - possibly not the sex they claimed to be?

Just plain silly, and hypocritical, imho.

Eats, with respect, I have seen many who describe themselves as radical feminists and "trans exclusive" claiming that most trans women do not "pass." It's not a term only used by transgendered people.

BTW nope, nowt you're saying is the least bit convincing, and I suspect you are citing "evidence" of various dubious provenance - something that's easy to do with t'interwebs.

But, if faith is more important than fact . . .

Eats can you point me to the case(s) in the US where children are being diagnosed at 5 on the basis of toys played with?

I found this article on googling which talks about girls stating that they were boys from a young age, but nothing about it being based on toys.

m.washingtonpost.com/local/transgender-at-five-tylers-story-leads-to-outpouring-of-other-stories/2012/05/21/gIQAQ9VRgU_story.html

To your three points.

1. that is your opinion. As I have not researched this thoroughly, I am holding off deciding one way or another. Give me evidence of this being true

2. this is indeed a problem, but should be sorted out with the individual. And I would question how often this issue comes up

3. I think most of us would object to a life-changing decision being made on behalf of a 5yo - including that actually weakens your argument, imo

I wouldn't mind a willy in the vicinity as long as it was in a cubicle tbh.

Mixed loos - fine if well run and clean. And not with those godawful bins for tampons rammed right next to the loo and never emptied

I don't get the linking of trans with sexual abuse support groups - have there been many cases where it's been an issue? And if everyone is there for the same reason, I still don't see a problem tbh.

Eats, you say many trans women don't "pass." Do you mean that they don't "look" or "act" like women? Surely, that involves accepting attributes commonly associated with one or other gender. It's my understanding that feminists recognise gender (like race, class, disability, etc.) as a social construct and a "tool" for maintaining patriarchal hegemony. It seems just a bit "wrong" for feminists to be using this "tool" themselves, surely.

Kim are you asking for my credentials or the op's?

Fantastic post, Kritiq

Eats
I don't know about you, but I find there is a massive difference between using a loo with someone who is packing a frankfurter, and a person who was born a man attending a sexual abuse support group for women.

Don't you see that?

If you're planning on scruting them, Kim, make sure you put your Marigolds on first.

I will en devour to find articles for you, but in the mean time may i ask why you are so strongly apposed to a women doing something that makes her feel better/more comfortable in her own skin?

I have little experience with extreme feminism (which i assume this is) and would like to be enlightened as to what the problem is with transgender females?

I would also like to ask why it is an issue if i like to get piercings or tattoos?

None of this is meant as an attack, it is genuinely curiosity, although i may appose your views.