Do you think (your) sexuality changes how you relate to women-only spaces?

The issue isnt being heterosexual. Its not even being with a man. It is being with a man under patriarchy.

Logic again

bah!

EBAL i agree that no-one needs to be cured of being lesbian or gay, by the same token surely no-one needs to be cured of being heterosexual?

what's that got to do with anything??

Beach - I have heard radfems who are Het and not in any relationship say they decided exactly the same thing. So when their relationship ended, they did not pursue another relationship with a man.

Hully - Most radfems who have been on mumsnet while I have posted here have not been lesbians. The vast vast majority are Het.

Rhubarb - Feminism is about how to fight the way men as a class oppress women as a class. That means men are raised to be oppressors. A very very few men manage to be allies instead to feminism. But the vast majority yes are oppressors. So of course they oppress women in Het relationships.

How much they oppress of course varies enormously from individual to individual.

Yes lots of theory has been written by women who were with male partners, but most of them did eventually leave those male partners. Not because anyone told them to, but because the cognitive dissonance of believing a particular set of beliefs and doing something different in their personal life, became too much.

I understand this feeling.

I'm in a heterosexual relationship that I don't want to end on a personal level. However if the relationship were to come to a natural end I don't think I would choose to be with a man again.

Either "reason" given for being a lesbian can be misused by the right wing. If it is biological e.g. genes then maybe scientists can detect a way to determine if a foetus is a lesbian and offer an abortion? If we are taught in our sexuality, then yes maybe we can be educated out of it.

What we should be arguing is that being a lesbian or gay is fine and there is no reason to try and cure anyone of it.

It's easy if you ARE a lesbian, of course...

There's a problem with saying 'we're all taught to be heterosexual and can become homosexual if we want to'. Namely that if this is the case, it follows that all those utter arseholes who think gay people can be 'educated' out of heterosexuality with the 'right' kind of treatment are actually correct.

That plus the idea of rationalising desire to the point where it fits in with a prescribed politics is, frankly, creepy.

"Het relationships are an important source of day-to-day oppression for Het women."

Surely that depends on who you are in a relationship with?
Or are radical feminists honestly saying that men and women should be separated to lead separate lives completely?

That sounds a bit dull Eats frankly

Kritiq as you know radical feminists dont agree on everything, but they do agree on basic tenets. And one of those basic tenets is that Het relationships are an important source of day-to-day oppression for Het women.

So yes an obvious choice for radical feminists is to be lesbian or celibate. Not all are though, some are with male partners. And yes many radical feminists do question why radical feminists who are bisexual women do not choose women as partners.

Yes lots of theory has been written by women who were with male partners, but most of them did eventually leave those male partners. Not because anyone told them to, but because the cognitive dissonance of believing a particular set of beliefs and doing something different in their personal life, became too much.

Political lesbianism says that sexuality is socially constructed. We are all taught to be Het from a young age. And thus women can become lesbians if they choose to be. And that although those lesbain relationships may involve genital contact, they dont have to.

Kash, I'm not sure that women can speak in such certain terms on behalf of men. I have had such a close relationship with one of my male friends that it did lead to gossip, but for us it was more of a brother/sister relationship. We watched out for each other and to this day we remain very close. He even referred to an ex he dated as "Rhubarb MarkII". He's now getting married in 2014 but still consults me on all aspects of life, as I do him.

I've also had other close relationships with men, shared beds with them and my innermost thoughts. Yes some did think they could have a relationship with me but when it was made clear that this wasn't part of the understanding, they accepted that and we remained close friends.

However, I have to be honest and say that dh started out as one of those friends too. He was a darn sight more determined than they were though and at first my lustful feelings for him were more to do with his mind than anything else. In fact I found it very difficult to see him as a sexual partner at first. I think I had to discover that emotional bond before the relationship could progress further.

It's funny but I've met a number of women who say their children are their hobby yet they seem quite resentful of men having hobbies away from the home. It makes me wonder if they aren't substituting their own interests with children and therefore are never quite fulfilled in themselves. I have to add though, these were women who had given up work to raise the children and although they could have found the time to go back to work or sustain a hobby, they felt it was their 'place' to be a mother and wife first and foremost.

Mooncup- that's great you can be close to your exes. That's an interesting dynamic, because if they are exes then I suppose you've kind of got the sexual stuff out of the way, realised it's not worked and moved on but hung on to the connection and friendship.

I'm not really in touch with my exes, so I don't have that.

But what my friends said about men always having some sexual spark in the back of their mind has now made me a little less easy around men. I guess I feel a bit self-conscious. I don't know why, because, like you, I'm not giving out 'available' vibes.

Yes, that's right Kashmiracle. Like Rhubarb I have close platonic relationships with men too. I daresay at some point they have thought of me in a sexual context (indeed, a couple are exes, so they definitely have!) and occasionally I have admired their muscly forearms or whatever. But then I have had moments of sexual frisson with female friends too... assuming both sides are aware that nothing will ever 'happen' in sexual terms I don't see it as a problem.

Complexity- no need to look it up- I understand, I just wanted to get it clear in my mind what you meant.

You can be passionate about a hobby or your children too. I guess it's a measure of strength of feeling.

THERhubarb- I would like to think that's true, although I am admittedly undecided on the matter of platonic relationships with men.

I am capable of it, but I've had so many discussions with women friends of mine, who are convinced that men aren't capable of platonic relationships with women and even for a split second at some point he may well have thought of you in a sexual context. I wonder if I'm being a bit niave thinking that that's doing men a massive disservice.

So often (before marriage) I was disappointed by male friends of mine wanting something more out of our relationship than friendship (which in my mind can be just as great). I felt quite cross about it, as it seemed to overly complicate things.

Complexity and MoonCup-

Forgive me for being thick, but do you mean passionate, as in emotionally committed and close?

As opposed to 'passionate' in a sexual context.

In which case I agree. I am emotionally committed to many of my close female friends, perhaps more so than with some members of my family.

I would like to think my freinds would be close regardless of my sexuality.

Yes complexity but my argument is that women can also have that kind of passionate relationship with men too. Obv I cannot argue from their point of view but certainly from my own, I have found myself lusting after men not with the aim of shagging them but to 'make love with their minds' to use a rather 'woo' term. Or because they ultimately make my laugh my clit off.

There are also women I feel passionate about and enjoy being with, in fact have a desire to be with, because we 'get' each other so much.

There is plenty I 'lust' after that is not sexually related at all.

For me, the physical act is something a little different. It's with someone I have shared experiences with, someone who has committed to me and someone with whom I have produced other little lives.

I personally wouldn't want to be with a woman all the time because I appreciate the gender differences that I have with my dh. It makes things interesting. I like that I have experiences he can never have and vice versa.