Responses to gender stereotyping children

I get what you are saying about wanting to be consistant for your daughters rather than being on a mission. I just know I find myself saying some stupid things that I don't even believe because I'm so chronically tired I can hardly see and I'm just trying to say something to another person - perhaps its just me?

I use something simple like, "I don't think boys and girls are that different actually. " if I don't want to openly snort in someone's face.

Emmeline: I take your point about the 50s/60s if digerd's sister is 64 now. But, I am older than that so would have been at least digerd's sister's age in the 50s/60s. And it would have made me feel stabby then too!

Double [snarfle]
that's fabulous!!! DD must be heading towards lesbianism then, because she can't get enough of BFing. obviously nothing to do with the fact that she's a great chubbing hungry girl!

Beyond
I think pirates aren't that great a role-model for either sex!

but, maybe you could look up some of the famous women pirates and put a little blurb about them in all the bags? even the boys' bags in case they think girls can't be pirates

I hear what you're saying about consistency. I also prioritise not gossiping in front of my dcs, so it's hard to counter.
For me, personally, because I have a tendency to hector, diverting or pretending not to hear is the best option.
Also, not all my interactions are with people I don't know. So for every time I've not engaged with someone saying 'typical boy/girl' my dcs have heard me bollock gently challenge mil, discuss how to challenge it with friends/ rant at the tv/ refuse to have women's magazines in the house, etc.

I am sick of being told that it is because my ds is a boy. For example he loves breastfeeding because he's a boy. Mmmm yeah because girl children know they are going to get their own breasts one day so aren't arsed?

On the other hand I think its worth remembering a lot of people are just trying to make conversation at groups and are often quite sleep deprived and not really functioning properly.

Meh.
I'm firmly of the nurture not nature belief, and hate to see children shamed and ridiculed into complying with gender stereotypes. However, as at the best of times I can slip into 'addressing a public meeting mode', I divert and counter these prejudices ideas later with my dcs.
It is a righteous fight, but for me not being mum who is constantly educating the great unwashed debating is more important.

I haven't read through the whole thread but I think you can be surprisingly direct without being confrontational. Say something in the 'caring parent its hard to do the perfect job' tone, like:

"I'm quite conscious of not trying to stereotype them by gender - I think it gives them the best chance to find out who they are- do you see what I mean?"

As though they already agree. They will then say 'oh yes' - most people just want to make conversation so they won't want to get into an argument about it.

I believe the stock AIBU response is "Your party, your choice".

I would probably go with all pirates because my daughters would prefer pirates too. I don't think it's a big win for feminism though - ignoring traditional girly image in favour of a traditional boy-y one. I'm guessing all the pirates on the pirate bags are male, which gives girls a bit of an erased from life message.

I would ask you please don't give the swimming pool the idea they need to make the girl bags mermaid-y so they are in keeping with swimming. I hate mermaids more than princesses as a playrole pushed on girls.

It's a shame they can't just go for a big fish/sealife theme.

Ahh, i'm gonna ask a little aibu here...
DS1 has a swimming party coming up. They offer pirate party bags for boys and princesses for girls.
I have said i'll have all pirates, as thats more relevant to swimming anyway! Aibu to make this choice on behalf of the girls at DSs party, or should it be up to their parents?

Should point out that digerd's example is presumably from the 50s/60s if her sister is now 64.

Though I think there's a lot of the same now, and even more pressure in the looks arena, there are some breakthroughs too. "The next Jessica Ennis" quote would probably not have had quite the same impact - and not just because she hadn't been born!

Yes grimble. And to think some people believe that "women got equality in the 1970s..." they just don't understand how bad things still are.

Also won arm wrestling boys, but soon gave that up as did her no favours with them - very canny.

That comment is interesting. It plays into something that makes me feel very stabby (sorry Digerd) i.e. the notion that strong girls have to pretend to be weak to play to male ego or to think they must change in order to "catch" a male.

We shall know we are 10 per cent towards equality when girls and women no longer feel the need to pretend to be feeble.

digerd I imagine that's probably it. "Tomboy" was a term of admiration in my family (mother loved boys, wanted all boys, hated wusses and whiners), but let's face it, when you give someone the status of "honorary Boy" you are telling them that being a girl is somehow inferior.

Can you imagine a black child being called a "tom-white" or something? Like, whoop, you're so exceptional to have risen above the inferiority of your birth and become almost as good as a white person naturally is! Well done you for overcoming your naturally crap blackness and being more like a white person!

It'd be considered extremely, extremely offensive.

Tomboy has always been meant with affection when I've heard it, but if you think about it, it's hellishly denigrating to girls.

When I was very young we lived in Yorkshire, and the term tom-boy was an admiring one, being very girlie was more taken as being weak and feable, or was that my older brother's influence on me, as i do remember him saying that girls were " scaredy cats". Oh, perhaps that's why my sister was as she was??

EmmelineGoulden. My sister is 65 now and recently admitted to me that everything she excelled in she did just to show off. She remembers climbing up the lampost, but when I asked her how on earth she did it - no other girls, including me had any interest in doing that, she has no memory of that, just that she couldn't get down, and I heard mum shrieking when she saw her up there. She also remembers doing her backward somersault and that was showing off too. She appeared in a dance show at 58, doing tap, modern stage and street jazz, and told me she was the best in the show and she was as I was in the audience.!!!!! She could still do cartwheels and the splits, and other ballet exercises that not even the 15 year-olds could do, she told me. And she showed me 2 of them in the pub and I was gobsmacked at the brilliance of her execution. She left the dance school a year ago when new girls joined that she couldn't compete with and could no longer be the best.

There must be a word for her . I told her she'd had a very good innings and shouldn't be so downhearted, but she has now become a member of the bit of a grumpy old woman brigade.

I get a lot of 'typical boy!' comments about my v.v.v.v.v.v.v.active and headstrong DS, and if I know the person well I engage with it a lot ("I don't know if it's typical because he's a boy, really, I mean, he loves pushing his doll in the little buggy and he's extremely nurturing and caring, aren't these all just typical things that typical toddlers do? And he loves music and drawing so much I imagine if he were a girl people would say those were 'typical girl' things about him, but they're all parts of his personality") and if I don't I say "Oh, typical toddler, really, don't you think?" with a breezy laugh.

I also love the baffled "wait, why can't girls climb?" or "But you don't need to be a boy to be strong and active, do you?" type responses, because you can question something in a polite/confused way that makes people actually engage their brains before opening their mouths.

I feel for you, OP - we're an all-boy household here but Dsis has 3 girls and gets a lot of 'typical girl!' comments about her oldest, and 'what a tomboy!' comments about her middle, and she just points out that (1) there's no such thing as typical anygender, otherwise her 3 DDs would be the same with the same interests, and they're not. (2) Her daughters couldn't be any more different if they were different genders too.
It probably helps that she and I both have crisp "teacher voices" that we use when we find people silly. That's how I pitch it to DS at the moment, people who have rigid expectations of how boys or girls behave are being silly.

It's hard work, but it's a righteous fight!

ps, and just smile at people making remarks and say," she's got so much energy hasn't she, will probably be an olympic athlete"

digerd, your poor sister :( That sounds like a lot of pressure to conform to things that didn't matter to her so she could be accepted doing (some of) the things she liked.

Don't be worried or annoyed about these things. There have always been "tom-boys" as they were affectionatlely called. Of course she will pick up on it, and she will deal with it in her own way. My sister was and still is very competitive, and at 3 years old, she climbed a lampost, as they were in the late 1940s with a bar at the top, as she had noticed that all the boys did that, and in her words, if they can do it so can I, and she did. When she was even younger, she bragged to a girl 2 years older than her, that she could do a backward somersault out of the bedroom window , which she did too. She did fracture her skull, but that healed and parents put locks on the windows. She could outrun all the boys at kisschase, so slowed down so she could be caught as she loved kissing boys. Also won arm wrestling boys, but soon gave that up as did her no favours with them - very canny. But on the otherhand she was very aware of her need to be the prettiest girl in her class, which she was too. Your daughter will be how she turns out to be and hope that is what she wants to be but her class mates usually will have some influence on her more than the parents in this matter. Just let her enjoy her childhood.

I think you've got some really good responses. this is something I really struggle with as many of my friends and most of my family makes comments like this all the time, my mum in particular insists that boys and girls are 'just different'. I usually remind them of how the DSs did the same sort of thing when they were the age DD is (usually they are commenting negatively about a behaviour that was either ignored with DSs or jsut provoked an eye-roll and 'boys!' type comment).
Luckily a couple of good friends also try to parent in a gender neutral a way as possible so we get together and exchange ideas.

First of all, WELL DONE TO YOU OP for recognising this gender stereotyping for the hogwash that it is. I work with parents and young children and I wish more parents were like you!

As I'm sure you know, many people are extremely invested in the whole idea of boys and girls being inherently different and may not take kindly to you telling them the truth otherwise. I would probably go with the baffled look that nickel suggested or a 'ooh why's that?' with a hard smile. Give people enough rope to hang themselves, then give an example of how DD actually loves to play with trains too, or male cousin so-and-so just loves dressing dollies and then maybe a 'all children are just so different, arent' they?' with the hard smile again. But everyone has to find their own personal style with this sort of thing. I love your 'she's the next Jessica Ennis' comment