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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

stag nights and strippers

33 replies

Kveta · 19/09/2012 09:14

I am struggling to put into words why I find strip clubs so objectionable, but I do.

Recently a friend has said her DP is thinking he might have to visit one on his stag night, and she is worried that by saying no she will appear controlling.

I think she has every right to object but other people around her are doing the 'it's his last night of freedom' crap so she is doubting herself.

I will be directing her here for some coherent thoughts from wise MNetters if that's ok :)

OP posts:
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Malificence · 20/09/2012 19:21

Yes, because drawing/painting/photographing a sitting/standing naked person is exactly like paying a young woman to strip and act in a sexually provocative manner towards you (interactively). Hmm

MsAnnTeak · 20/09/2012 19:05

Kveta 'just don't see that it's healthy to pay someone to take off their clothes. '

How about a still life model for drawing/painting ?

MsAnnTeak · 20/09/2012 18:49

Looks a pretty straightforward root to finding the answers and drawing conclusions :-

A Freedom Of Information request presumably to Camden Council was made by a group called Community Safety who wanted it as part of a response to the Licensing Departments consultation on sex establishments in Camden.

This resulted in a summary of the results of an unpublished report. The original report examined crime near nine lap dancing clubs in Camden Borough. The summary reveals:

Three years worth of data (1 June 2008 ? 31 May 2011) was collated of ?all reported crime within 40 metres, and 10 metres of each club. The clubs are listed below:
?City Burlesque
?Parkers
?Red Rooms
?Secrets, Eversholt Street
?Secrets, Finchley Road
?Secrets, Gray?s Inn Road
?Secrets, Parker Street
?Spearmint Rhino
?The Griffin

The report attempts to determine whether crime around these venues is in any way excessive, or exceptionally different from what would be expected of any other night-time economy venue in Camden.

10 metre buffer zone
?The results showed an overall low level of offences with no obvious seasonality.
?Of all crime types other theft was considerably higher than other type of crime.
?Most offences occurred in the early hours of Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
?There is not an exceptional amount of crime around these venues at the 10 metre buffer level. The type of crime that is apparent mirrors what would be expected in any other night-time economy venue.

40 metre buffer zone
?The results showed an overall low level of offences with no obvious seasonality.
?Of all crime types other theft was considerably higher than other type of crime.
?Most offences occurred on Friday evening and early Saturday morning.
?As with the 10 metre buffer zone, there is no evidence when examining the 40 metre buffer zone of excessive levels of crime. Once again, the majority of crimes are other theft which is consistent with night-time economy venues.

Conclusion

There is no statistical evidence for a specific crime problem around lap-dancing clubs in Camden

MsAnnTeak · 20/09/2012 18:44

Can you link to the sources for Amsterdam, Nevada and Australia ?

StewieGriffinsMom · 20/09/2012 18:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MsAnnTeak · 20/09/2012 18:18

In 2003, an anti sex work research organisation (Lilith Research and Development, a subsidiary project of Eaves Women?s Aid) published research equating the opening of Lap Dancing clubs to an increase in reported rape. The research stated that after lap dancing clubs opened in Camden, reported rape increased by 50%. A few years later the Guardian published an update, there was a mathematical error and the rape rate had only increased by 30%. As with all research, once the headlines have been released, these headlines will always be quoted by those wanting to win their argument. The 50% figure is still used in propaganda packs by the anti sex work groups.

Brooke L Magnanti, PhD. (Belle de Jour) has revisited this research with a different finding, looking at a longer time period, and comparing the Camden statistics with other London boroughs and national reported rape statistics. Reported rape has actually decreased. She has written a paper titled The impact of adult entertainment on rape statistics in Camden:a re-analysis.

Her comments on looking at a greater set of data, and comparing the Camden data with Lambeth, Islington and nationally is best said in her own words.

If a cause-and-effect relationship between the number of lap dancing clubs and the occurrence of rape existed, we would expect Lambeth to be lowest of the three because it has no clubs. By the same assumption we would expect Islington to be higher because it has a couple, and Camden highest because it has more than those other boroughs. The analysis however shows that Camden is consistently the lowest of the three. The results do not support a causal link between the number of lap dancing clubs in a borough and the risk of rape.

The trend for the three London boroughs shows that Lambeth (with no lap dancing) and Islington (with only 2 clubs) both have rates that are higher than Camden?s. It also demonstrates that all three have decreased over time, while the trend in England and Wales over the same time period has been for a rise. Apart from the early 2000s peak, Camden?s numbers are similar to the overall rate for England and Wales, and are sometimes below it. In the original report it was claimed that Camden?s rapes were ?three times the national average,? and this has been reported elsewhere. This new analysis shows that statement is not true at any point within the studied time period.

Studying the figures Brooke supplies, there is a drop in reported rape in Camden, other that for the three years immediatly after 1999. Overall the London boroughs have a reduction in reported rape, which goes against the National figures which show a rise.

I expect the incorrectly interpreted Lilith research will continue to be used by those who want to close down lap dancing clubs. The figure of 50% increase in rapes will continue to be published in newspaper reports, and used in publicity by the ant sex work groups.

Brookes interpretation (which is not new, a report by Bill Martland was sent to parliament in 1998 ) is important, because I expect Lilith?s findings were used to help persuade Hackney council to go for a nil policy for sex work establishments. Object still publish the discredited 50% increase in reported rapes on their website. It is important to debunk these figures with real interpretations of actual data. There have been many reports stating these figures were grossly wrong, but as you can see the anti sex work groups of Eaves, Object and the Fawcett Society are still peddling them.

avaboosmummy · 19/09/2012 20:10

Taking your clothes off to dancy sexily for men you dont know, who pay you to do this, is exploitation.

Why is it any more so than the whole host of other jobs that are demeaning?

Kveta · 19/09/2012 17:44

thanks all :) friend is a MNetter and has read the thread and says thank you for helping!

oh and I find male strippers pretty seedy too, just don't see that it's healthy to pay someone to take off their clothes.

OP posts:
kim147 · 19/09/2012 17:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EnglishNotMy1stLanguage · 19/09/2012 16:00

Definitely redirect her to here before she gets married regardless her partner going to strip club or not.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 19/09/2012 15:47

Taking your clothes off to dancy sexily for men you dont know, who pay you to do this, is exploitation. If your boss offered you money to do this would you do it at work? For most women the answer would be no, because it is demeaning and exploitative.

Sausageeggbacon · 19/09/2012 15:39

SGM could you point at the data about those stats. The only 2 reports I can find are Holsopple (25 years old and figures from the US) and the Lilith report which has been shown to be a waste of the paper it is written on. The claim from the Inspector Drummond was not based on any data but a gut instinct. So struggling to find anything that can be used in an argument.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 19/09/2012 15:22

We live in a male dominated society where womens bodies are fetishized and judged in public. It is a different dynamic a woman stripping in front of a group of men, to a man stripping in front of a group of a woman.

Although I wouldnt be too impressed by a male stripper at a hen do either.

barnet · 19/09/2012 14:44

Haven't read the whole thread, but just a thought- ladies sometimes have a male stripper at a hen do and its considered just a laugh.

bubalou · 19/09/2012 14:40

I'm not saying it doesn't make me strawberry - I wouldn't do it in a million years - even if I had the body for it!

If she was a close friend of mine I'd of given her a damn good talking to!

StrawberrytallCAKE · 19/09/2012 14:35

selling your body for shoes makes me feel very uncomfortable.

bubalou · 19/09/2012 14:31

I didn't mean to be flippant.

I was merely commenting on my personal circumstances. (We are not swingers by the way) Blush

Me and DH both know how we feel about this. I am not sure how I would handle it OP if I had to address it with him - other then to maybe tell him you don't feel comfortable with it if that is the case?

Also I do not disagree with the fact that exploitation happens in places like this (of course it does) however not ALL lap dancers etc are exploited.

I have known a couple of girls who do it, they are all very confident, happy and have no pressure on them to do it - it's a choice. One is a hair dresser and she picks up extra shifts at a local strip club and I quote 'when she wants to buy a new pair of shoes or a nice bag'. By shoes she doesn't mean she's saving for a pair of clarks pumps - she means Louboutins - of which she has many pairs!

Numberlock · 19/09/2012 14:15

it's his last night of freedom

This isn't going to be a one-off though, is it, if he's that type of person and so are his friends, there'll be lots of other times when he "has to visit one" - his mates' stag-dos, birthdays, works nights out etc etc.

This issue needs resolving before they get married, it would be a deal-breaker for me I'm afraid.

Numberlock · 19/09/2012 14:13

he might have to visit one on his stag night

Lol at "he might have to" - like it's something beyond his control.

it's his last night of freedom

I cannot stand this type of stag-do mentality. All lads together, anything goes, all egging each other on...

Just be grateful it's your friend that's marrying him and not you, OP.

KRITIQ · 19/09/2012 14:07

Bubalou, if you feel happy about your DH going to strip clubs, having "private dances," buying other sexual services, etc., that's find for you and your DH. There are couples who swing or have open relationships where they have sexual relationships with other people and if both parties are genuinely happy with that, I don't see that being a problem either.

You said that if you didn't want your DH to go, he wouldn't.

The issue for the OP's friend is different. She and her DP have no such agreement in place. She doesn't feel she can ask him NOT to go to a strip club. Whether that's because she fears he won't listen to her or some other reason, we don't know, but the situ is different from yours.

StewieGriffinsMom · 19/09/2012 14:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/09/2012 14:04

Fine for you, or fine for people working there?

Surely if there are people working in them who end up feeling exploited and demeaned (which there are), it's indicative of a problem?

We wouldn't be ok with any other industry regularly turning out women workers who felt shite about it all, so why this one?

bubalou · 19/09/2012 13:59

I don't find strip clubs offensive.

I have only been in 1 before and it was fine.

DH has been in them before as he goes to London on business etc and it's quite a common thing for a business dinner to end up in one with clients.

DH phoned me only 2 weeks ago when he was in London, it was only 7:30pm but he had been there all day and was telling me that he was in Metropolis.

I laughed, told him to have a good time and that was it.

He was home at 11pm. He had 3 private dances.

I couldn't care less. If I did he wouldn't go.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/09/2012 13:41

ava, if you look at the rest of this section, you will see loads of threads discussing many issues other than this one.

Strip clubs are objectionable because the are exploitative shite and perpetuate the idea that it's a really excellent idea for men to pay women for their bodies instead of, you know, being decent human beings.

I know several people who've worked in strip clubs, and they're all students and highly educated. This does not magically make them immune to being exploited and it doesn't make them feel any better about the whole thing, either.

It's a total myth to pretend educated women can't be exploited.

KRITIQ · 19/09/2012 13:35

Avaboo - absolutely no idea how you managed to draw THAT conclusion from anything said on this thread.

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