In this day and age! A thread for unbelievably obvious examples of sexism.

"That is something that I've thought a lot about. When someone is struggling - such as an IT problem, and you have experience in that area and could probably help, what do you do?

And does your reaction depend on the gender of who needs help and your gender?"

Definitely Kim147. This happened the other day when a friend was struggling with a piece of equipment. I really wanted to help but was afraid to look as if I was taking over and suggesting he was incapable. I'd never feel like that with a female friend.

Thing is I'm never sure if that's just me being a wus or if lots of women feel like that.

Oh lord, between this thread and the socialisation one I've realised I'm such a wimp, and that the patriarchy is so deeply ingrained in me I'd need bloody surgery to remove it!!

Stewie - No, not obvious to me, but was after she clarified it.

No, not intending to be 'narky' at all. Just trying to contribute to the debate and offer an opinion which, due to the very nature of debates, can be slightly different to other peoples.

Bookbrain - "But I was livid that they said these things in front of my young, impressionable sons, who were looking up to these men as not only knowledgeable experts but also superhero types (tank commanders!!)."

Very valid point. I'm curious too as to why women cannot be tank crewmen. I wonder what their rationale behind the decision is?

Blackcurrants - you pipped me to it! I was just about to make the same observation,- that when we went to look at Volvos, all questions and answers were directed at DH even tho I'd be driving it jsut as much. It's a family car. Not mine, or his.

Blackcurrants - Thanks for clarifying. I totally agree with your walking away if that is how you were treated. The care salesman lost a sale, a sale which he sure as hell didn't deserve after the way you were treated. Now, if he modifies his behaviour to increase his sales and starts to show respect to women, his trigger is financial rather than moral. How would you feel?

Please, if you don't have the time to answer, nor wish to, I understand. I'm simply curious.

yes, why assume that a man will be more capable than a woman of sorting out a technical problem?
it usually me that knows this stuff. DH wouldn't have a clue!

We visited the Tank Museum in Dorset last summer. One of the attractions is the chance to sit inside a Chieftan tank and be talked through the controls, life onboard etc by an ex-member of tank crew.

DH and I queued up for bloody ages and took our turn with our two DSes. I sat in the Navigator seat - cue hilarious jokes about women not being able to read maps, women drivers etc. I pointed out that I am actually quite capable of reading a map without getting lost - was given a withering look.

There was then a lecture on the fact that the British Army apparently don't have female tank crews, because (a) women lack the mental toughness and (b) it is all very very difficult and too complicated for women's brains, as you have to do many things at once, including reading maps and steering the tank. I took issue with this and we were hastily ushered out of the tank with much eye-rolling from the tank guides.

I've worked in male-dominated environments and I can cope with a bit of banter about women drivers, boring, cliched and inaccurate as it may be. But I was livid that they said these things in front of my young, impressionable sons, who were looking up to these men as not only knowledgeable experts but also superhero types (tank commanders!!).

Looking at the army website, it does appear that you have to be male to be a tank crewman.. I wonder what the real reason is.

It is annoying if men are given the bill.

In my family, DH usually pays with his card from the joint account because I never remember to take anything out with me (i'm amazed i haven't locked myself out of the house before now!), but that's laziness not ladyness.

he also mows the lawns. but that because he has days off and i don't. he does most of the cooking, most of the cleaning etc, but that's because i'm usually BFing (the one task we can't both do!)

I try to head off any sexism where i find it bubbling.

I was sat in a hall for a training evening. It was for childcare with 100 women and me the only man. As usual. The female trainer was at the front with 2 other women who were organising the event trying to get the projector/laptop to work. After 5 minutes of struggling one of them called out "We need to find a man!"
I was a bit embarrassed and kept quiet even though I would have been the perfect person to sort it out!

yes I've seen the menu without prices in a very posh restaurant. I asked them to give me a normal one.

kim, while I'm in France and it might be different in UK, I have noticed a massive change in the past few years. The waiters always ask who wants to taste the wine and don't assume it's DH and they put the bill simply on the table, not even closer to him. I suspect there has been some general "feminist sensitivity" training

Maswera - I came across the priceless ladies menu thing once while on business in America about 15 years ago., I had heard of it but never believed it really happened. Never seen it here though.

lovecat - your DH sounds like my step-dad. My mum is the one who changes the fuses, fixes the toilet when it's blocked, does all the gardening and DIY, as well as looking after the kids and working part-time. She's pretty awesome. Mind you, he does do all the cooking!

I've been in several shops where people (both men and women) have just spoken to my OH and blatantly ignored me. I just put it down to OH's stunning good looks though - everyone is just trying to chat him up!

Portofino - no, not arguing that they are not real cases of sexism at all. I do, however, think that how we react to them is important from an equality point of view and for our own sanity.

If we succeed in challenging a stereotype in a male dominated word and plant the seeds of change in someone's opinion, then I think that, that is something to celebrate, rather than feel angry about the fact that it happened in the first place. I guess you feel differently.

If we carry on being angry and defensive every single time we surprise a male with our choices, lifestyles, careers and ideas due to his perceived ideas of what is normal, then that has a knock on effect on our lives, those around us and our health.

I am passionate about promoting equality for women, but I am also passionate about many other things in life and the judgmental comments from males, (which stem from many, many factors), do not cause me to lose sight of the fact that life can really be very enjoyable.

maswera - i've never experienced that.

More often than not my DH gets given the bill and even if I have moved the bill over to my side of the table, put my credit card on it, they'll still be awkward about who is paying for it and often make a comment about how lucky he is to be treated by me! He is lucky though....

Apparently there are some posh restaurants that have 2 menus - one with prices on (given to the man) and one without any for the laydee, so she doesn't have to worry her pretty little head about how much it all costs

(I should add though that although I have been to a fair few posh restaurants in my time I have never actually come across this myself...)

Before I met him, DH rang a local riding stables to ask about lessons as he'd always wanted to learn to ride. The conversation went like this:

DH: 'I'm calling to ask about riding lessons...'

Stables: 'And how old is the little girl?'

DH: 'He's 35 and weighs about 12 stone.'

Stables: '....'

Ours and a few neighbours' houses surround a jointly-owned green that we take turns to mow. When the rota came round in the spring, it only had the men's names on. (I would be surprised if DP had ever mowed a lawn before we moved in.) The (AFAIK perfectly fit, young healthy) woman who lives alone doesn't feature on the rota.

My mum will often refer to an adult woman as a 'little girl' - eg "the little girl on the checkout in the co-op" or "that little girl who reads the local news". There is no way she would ever refer to an adult male professional as a 'little boy'

Lovecat - your husband sounds like my dad. He's terrible at everything - can't even change a lightbulb.

So my mum does everything in the house. She did ALL the childcare when we were growing up, had a full-time job, does the housework, the DIY and all the gardening.

She has many, many, many examples of this casual sexism and she always points it out in a very Mumsnetty 'did you mean to be so rude' way. I have learned from this and try to do the same.

(In my dad's defence, he also will never keep quiet if he thinks someone is being sexist/racist/homophobic - I very much admire this.)

florencejon, is it your intention to argue that none of these are real cases of sexism? Cos it is getting boring already.