In this day and age! A thread for unbelievably obvious examples of sexism.

ha ha ha ha "unfortunately"

In other words, florencejon, you deeply regret the horrible truth that you are not allowed to pull these unladylike people up on their lack of womanly grace.

It seems to me that throughout this thread you have been implicitly critical / disbelieving of those who have been treated unfairly. I am sorry that rude and unfair and sexist behaviour is bad for your health and your blood pressure (and you think it is healthier not to notice it), but actually in the grand scheme of things, this is probably one of the minor effects of several millennia of patriarchy on women's health. Still, get well soon!

I guess it depends how we portray that anger. I have no intention of giving a man the opportunity to say, "Calm down, dear!" to me.

A dignified, clear and concise portrayal of the point I am trying to get across works best for me personally, and I've found that it actually makes people more receptive to the point I'm trying to make.

We're fighting for the same cause. How we choose to do it, and what we choose to call ourselves, is very individual, unfortunately.

Being at a large family orientated birthday party where there was a large buffet made by various women, and the women were all helping to set it up and then at the end clear it up. Meanwhile the men stood round the bar talking. Not one man seemed to see it as his role to help out too.

Discussing the Julian Assange case at work the the other day got us onto the topic of 'what is rape'. My colleagues were adamant that it couldn't be rape if you had already slept with them. enough on it's own.

But when I argued the point, i.e. what about husbands that rape their wives etc, is that ok? Female colleague argued back 'Oh, that's all a bit feminist for me'

Anytime we challenge a stereotype, I feel it is a positive thing. I obviously have a different view of 2012 to you orange. You see something as tragic, but I see it as a triumph that a 7 year old girl will challenge an obviously closed minded martial arts instructor, just as you may have done all those years ago when you studied martial arts.

Equality is and will be an ongoing battle for the rest of my lifetime, I would imagine.

Actually investing anger in tackling injustice is often extremely effective.

Perhaps that's why you don't like it.

Orangekipper - I assumed (can you actually confidently assume?!) a different scenario. It's not always easy to get the complete picture from a post and sometimes further clarification is needed. In my case, the further clarification was very kindly given by blackcurrants and I agreed that she made a good decision to walk out.

I wasn't sure of the complete picture, hence my questions after her post.

And btw I was a seven-year-old girl doing martial arts with a husband and wife team of instructors, possibly before the above-mentioned sexist instructor was born.

So no, I don't see it as a triumph that in 2012 a seven year old has to challenge a man's stereotypes. I think it's tragic she has to.

In the town centre today, a woman commented on my unusual surname as I made a card payment. I was making conversation blithering and mentioned that it was my dad's surname as I didn't change it when I got married. She looked mildly shocked and said 'Didn't your husband mind?'

I explained that I got my doctorate in my own name and so didn't want to change it. I think the doctorate bit shocked her even more

My friends FIL won't close the curtains at home. He says it's "woman's work".

Blackcurrants Your post was great reading. Thanks for taking the time to write such a long and informative post. The racism comparison was very interesting.

I pick up a lot of anger/aggression from posters when they have experienced assumptions based on their being a woman. Absolutely, being discriminated against is wrong, but I don't think investing anger in the situation helps in the short or long term. Maybe that is just an age thing though as I am certainly calmer as the years pass by and I don't want to do anything to exacerbate my age induced high blood pressure.

I find it interesting too that what offends one woman doesn't necessarily offend another, or at least to the same degree. Obviously, it is difficult to gauge a person's anger from an internet forum and so we rely on the tone and language used in the post which can sometimes be inaccurate.

x-post w blackcurrants putting it much more pithily.

So florencejon, you assumed - very confidently, to the point of chiding blackcurrants for it - that she had not spoken, based on the salesman's behaviour to her?

But the post is about the salesman's whole behaviour being unreasonable. Eg continually speaking only to MrBlackcurrants even when MrB kept referring the questions back to blackcurrants. Not asking her name would be consistent with this.

I'm interested how you, instead, came to the conclusion the salesman must have behaved reasonably on this, and further that blackcurrants must be at fault?

Vezzie and nickeldaisical - What you have described is a very common situation. I'm at the point in my life where I have enough life experience to realise that not everyone is open to change/will change due to age, pride from a refusual to accept that maybe a past way of thinking could be incorrect, even an adamant refusal to change because they believe that their views are indeed the correct ones.

I think we can make a difference by making our own personal expectations clear, by choosing what type of man, if any, we decide to share our lives with and how we raise our children.

Change is never easy, especially when we are trying to change centuries of what was once considered acceptable behaviour.

From the situation you described, I hope that if just one man decided to help with the clearing up, then a ball would have started rolling, and the others would have decided to join in. Maybe that is the way to go forward for now in dealing with ingrained behaviour.

What do you both suggest?

yes, vezzie, totally agree.

the women seem to do it automatically and men have to be asked.
but the only time they are asked is when it's something that needs to be lifted or carried

What I find difficult is that in a situation where women are shouldering unfair amounts of work (like at family parties I have been to where the women are washing up and tidying the hired hall while the men are still standing about drinking and chatting), as a woman there is nothing I can do. I can see that someone is dashing about and take something off her - "Oh let me dry those" - but it is still just some woman doing it and the status quo is unchanged. And as a woman it feels so, so wrong to go up to a group of men and say "Could you please help with this?" because - because - why? I just can't ask people to do things. In fact now I think about it this is a major theme in where I have been going wrong my whole life.

OrangeKipper - Sure.

When the OP said that the salesman only asked her DP's name, I assumed that this was on the initial introduction and that only her DP had spoken.

She clarified it for me and I think she made the right decision to walk out.

"why didn't YOU open the conversation with, 'I am interested in.......""

florencejon, can you clarify why you made this assumption?

i wouldn't feel awkward helping someone who needs help regardless of their sex.

but that's just me, i think. i've always been forthright.

Bookbrain I would seriously consider dropping them an email now.

DoctrineofSnatch, I didn't complain. I thought about it and then wondered if it would just wind me up more to do so. In retrospect I wish I had though as they are probably dishing out the same guff to visitors now.

messyisthenewtidy "I really wanted to help but was afraid to look as if I was taking over and suggesting he was incapable. I'd never feel like that with a female friend. Thing is I'm never sure if that's just me being a wus or if lots of women feel like that."

You certainly aren't the only woman to feel like that, and I've had good reason too- I can't tell you the number of times men have become irrational and borderline aggressive when I've tried to help. I have been conditioned by their behaviour into non-action now. Its very frustrating!

Kim - Thanks for the link Kim. I thought Caroline Wyatt made some good points.

Wow that is horrible Bookbrain. Fine to say "at present it is only men who take these roles" but the other stuff is awful.

Did you let the museum know that their docents were talking like this? Bit of training required, methinks!