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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A thread to ask basic questions about feminism

86 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 16/09/2012 23:39

We havent had one of these threads for a while. This is a thread to ask basic questions about feminism. It doesnt matter how silly or trivial you think your question is. This is the place to ask it.

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 17/09/2012 11:45

messy - Dont apologise for posting a lot! Its absolutely fine. I want this to be a safe and supportive thread for women to ask and answer questions about all brands of feminism

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messyisthenewtidy · 17/09/2012 11:31

Sorry for so much posting!! The questions are just really interesting!! Grin

messyisthenewtidy · 17/09/2012 11:30

Hairextensions "Is Feminism essentially about attaining equality?"

I remember being inspired by Greer's words (in "The whole woman" I think!). She said that Feminism isn't about attaining equality but liberation. For me, that is a huge part of feminism - liberating both men and women from the gender straitjacket society has put on them. That's why Fm is good for men also, if only they would realise it!!

When I was preggers and got refused for part-time work at my job they were quick to say that they weren't being sexist because if I were a man requesting part-time work I would also have been refused!

It was "equalist" logic with a very unequal outcome, because of course men don't have babies in the same way that women do! So sometimes equal treatment doesn't lead to equal opportunity for women, and a certain amount of differentiation is needed. The goal however should always be equality of opportunity because that is just plain old fair. HTH Smile

messyisthenewtidy · 17/09/2012 11:22

Also, it's worth asking the question that if we are to have "equal but different" what are we to do with the substantial number of men and women who don't fit into the categories that their gender has marked out for them?

Do they bow to the greater collective good or do we encourage people to follow their individual goals?

messyisthenewtidy · 17/09/2012 11:19

Nailak, I often think about that too. But I think that "equal but different" is often used as an excuse to keep women and men in separate spheres.

I reckon that in the olden days there was definitely a need to keep a sexual division of labour and as long as women's sphere was as highly valued as men's I don't see a problem. If you look at some Native American cultures, they had strict divisions (men hunting & warfare, women crops, childcare, building huts) but women's sphere was valued as evidenced in the women's councils that had a say in political affairs.

There does seem to be a lot of evidence however the ideal of separate spheres was heightened during the Victorian times (in the west at least) as a response to feminists' demands for education, which is of course a bit crappy pat on the head ("you do the washing love, you're so much better at it than me!")

So I think that it's safe to say that in Western history, women's roles have been diminished by patriarchy and that "equal but different" has been a sop thrown to women to keep them out of power. I also think the nuclear family set up we have had in the West doesn't help. Men ruled the public domain, women the private, but as the private domain has been increasingly fragmented due to the decline of the extended family, women's lives became isolated and therefore less powerful.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 17/09/2012 01:00

nailak, sorry not sure what you mean - can you expand?

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 17/09/2012 00:59

Feminism says that we live in a male dominated society. Feminism is about ending that male domination - which is why it used to be called womens liberation i.e. womens liberation from a male dominated society. Different branches of feminism have different ideas about how we achieve that.

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nailak · 17/09/2012 00:58

what is the stance on equal but different?

HairExtensions · 17/09/2012 00:43

Is Feminism essentially about attaining equality, or is there more that defines it?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 16/09/2012 23:59

Obviously there are some basic differences. Men and women have different reproductive systems - so women give birth and have the ability to breastfeed. This means women and men need to be treated differently around some issues. So women need some maternity leave to physically recover from the birth.

There are also hormonal differences between men and woman. How much these matter is debated by feminists. Some think tetosterone in men makes them more aggressive than women for example, while others disagree.

Men are also in general taller and have greater upper body strength. Obviously this is an average. There are some women with large upper body strength and some men with poor upper body strength. But on average, men are taller with greater upper body strength.

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nailak · 16/09/2012 23:50

are men and women the same?