A thread to ask basic questions about feminism

Ban all porn or create a society where porn is nonsensical as it is alien to a culture where women aren't oppressed? I'd say the latter.

Feminism is about choice, but it's also about equality and having a voice which means some women's choices may well be questioned by feminists. In other words, they're free to make their choice, but they should expect to defend it.

Glamour models who choose to expose their breasts to the Sun-reading public, for example, will come in for a fair amount of flack for their choice. Because it impacts on the lives of other women.

They're fully entitled to choose to do whatever they want with their breasts. Flash and expose them to whoever they seem to think needs to see them. I don't think many feminists want to ban women from showing everyone their boobs - they're just interested in examining their need to show everyone their breasts through a feminist lens. And would like to live in a world where there was as much of a demand to see said breasts over the morning cereal as there is to see naked todgers over cereal.

I.e. none.

It's about a bigger-picture mind-shift.

Beyond, you need to send off the form and get a badge

Or hang out here talking with us

The car I have now is so obviously designed for a man. I am tall for a woman but still shorter than an averge man. But I find this car so awkward. I cannot reach the glove compartment from the driver's seat. I have to put the seat at the highest setting to see over the steering wheel. Then the gap between the seat and steering wheel is very narrow- obviouslt designed for men with smaller thighs. It is all very different from the small car I used to have which was certainly made for a woman driver.

It's like plugs- they are designed to help people with colour blindness (men). But nothing is ever designed around conditions you just get in women.

I have come to the conclusion that I am a feminist after all!
What do I do now?

It might help to remember that feminism has roots as a political movement. You wouldn't expect all Labour party members to agree on all positions, likewise not all feminists agree on everything.

Mjl there are a (very) few posters in this section who disapprove of housewives and express themselves forthrightly. The majority of posters on this section do not do this and many of those also express themselves forthrightly.

I assume this is mirrored in the wider world but I spend most of my "debating time" on here so wouldn't be sure of that.

Choice shmoice.

Feminism isn't about slagging off other women for the choices they make.

It's about analysing the society in which women and men make their choices and acknowledging that choices are made in a context.

There's an interesting thread running atm in this section which discusses this:

here it is

I do have another point / question.. I have known many different types of feminists with very different views and I do believe that equality is something different to what we have now.. but there is a theme within most of the more strong minded of feminists that I have always found very distressing.. more distressing than blaming men for all that is wrong and looking for every excuse to rate women over men.. that is the way some 'feminists' look down on and even in some cases are positively horrible to women who chose to be 'housewives' or have a 'hubby' or like having doors opened for them or being driven around by their boyfriend in 'his' car. Surely the point of equality is CHOICE and FREEDOM to choose???

My version of feminism is about changing the world and its institutions so that they are designed to fit the whole of humanity, not just half the species. I don't want to be equal in an unequal set up, because that means that I will always be playing on an uneven playing field. There won't be real equality until we equalise the playing field.

Spot on. Thanks Fastidia.

I used to do a long commute to London to work. It was really amusing in the mornings to see a man and a woman drive up to the station - the bloke would get out the driving seat and go into the station, the woman would get out the passenger seat and into the driver's seat. In the evening it was reversed: woman drives up to station, meets hubby (it's obviously the sort of relationship where she calls him hubby) gets out the driver's seat and into the passenger seat. Husband gets in driver's seat.....

I first notice it and thought it was odd, then I began really noticing it and counting how often it happened (passing time waiting for the inevitably late train in the morning or queueing to pay for car park in the evening) and I estimated that it happened with about 80% of couples.

That was in the late 1980s and through the 1990s though: I would be interested to see if that is still the case.

Any other commuters noticed this?

Well, there you are then. One reason women are more likely than men to get hurt in car accidents is that they're probably the front-seat passenger rather than the driver. We could speculate on whether the accident would be less likely if the woman were driving, too.

Has anyone ever noticed how rare it is to see a woman driving a car with an adult male passenger? It would be a good game to liven up a car journey to get the kids to call out any time they spot one.

www.thefreedictionary.com/death+seat

Tei Tetua I always insist my kids sit in the back and they get pissed off with me, but I've always just thought about it as being safer. I guess I must have read that at some point, I can't remember ever knowing that, I wonder if it's still true?

Oh how disappointing having to do without flatpack's post. I love the way equalising the playing field, is seen by misogynists as female supremacist.

Here's another analogy: you know those shops you can get special tin openers etc., designed for left handed people. Because the rest of the world is designed for right handed people and unless you are left handed, you don't realise just how inconvenient that is - when you're left handed, you have to re-string the guitar, hold whatever it is upside down, etc. (I'm not left handed btw) Mostly left handed people simply adapt to this because that's the way the whole world is from when they are tiny, and then when you buy them something from one of those stores they say:"OMG I can't believe how much easier it is to do this now!"

This is not a result of a conspiracy of hatred against left-handed people. It's just that most people are right-handed, therefore most designers and engineers don't actually take into account the fact that 10% or whatever it is, of people are left handed, so they disadvantage them without noticing or realising that they're doing so. Right handed people are mainstream, left handed people are other than mainstream.

It's what happens to women all the time. The difference being, that women are 50% of the population, not 10%, so it is far less expliquable in terms of proportions of population. The only reason women are as othered as left-handed people is because we still live in a male supremacist system which perceives every attempt to equalise the playing field, as a bid for female supremacy.

Speaking of who gets hurt in car accidents, I remember years ago being told that the person most likely to be injured or killed in a car crash was the one in the passenger seat, beside the driver. So if (for social reasons that we need not get into at this point) a couple are most likely to be in car that the man drives, it leaves the woman in the most vulnerable position.

There is also the question of whether an accident is more likely if a woman is driving, or a man.

Hi mjl

Yes the "assumptions" the world works on can be a PITA for both sexes, it's true. Hence why messy said Feminism is good for men also as it liberates from gender straitjackets. I am glad you are pissed off by adverts targeting "domestic" products at women, I am too. I think the changing table situation is improving, perhaps more by virtue of the disabled toilet situation improving and the two being co-sited, but it is getting there.

There are fewer than there used to be, I agree, as many posters have been driven away by male trolls who seek to derail feminist discussion. It gets quite wearing after a time.

I was expecting some, but there don't seem to be any.

I suppose that you've got to expect feminist views on a board about feminism. Irksome though that may be.

FastidiaBlueberry

I had a huge post but MumsNet ate it, so you'll have to do without it. I'm certain that you're only interested in the views of people who agree with your female supremacist worldview.

Kim that suit sounds interesting.