A thread to ask basic questions about feminism

ps. just remembered " The Chippendales" , think they were trained dancers the way they could move their bodies so sinuously

I went to one male strip evening with girls from work in my late 20s, but found it distasteful - yuck, infact. I watched one guy who was a brilliant dancer and admired his strength and agility but had nothing to do with finding him sexy. There was a group of gorgeous greek god type men from US, forgotten their name, anyone remember? i saw on TV on stage in 70s-80s and WOW they were so seductively sensual and actually took my breath away at my reaction !!!

It is a biological fact that testosterone is what makes a person into the masculine gender, and starts in the womb. A male has around 300 units of it in his blood and woman about 28, I read. Testosterone gives the males the face hair, strong muscles, infact everything that is biologically male, including the surge of it during the sex act, and also energetic exertion. And aggression, but only in some men. My DH did not have an aggressive bone in his body, but he was in the minority of men. Aggression does not always have to appear in violent brutality, it can be in his demeanour and tone of voice. - threatening, argumentative, stubborn, bigotted etc . We see aggression in the animal males, as they have to defend their territory. Human males are expected by society to curb any of these still innate instincts by using self-control, except during sporting events, of course. Also on record is that the majority of aggressive criminal acts by women were committed during their PMT days - yes- meek and mild me did have sudden rages until I went on the Pill . They called it an imbalance of hormones at that time of the month, but actually I discovered later it was an increase in a testosterone derivative and a decrease in oestragen !!!!!!!

TheDoctrineOfSnatch

Flat pack do you consider that male strippers and male escorts are empowered?

I don't 'consider' them one way or t'other. I think that the idea that anyone can tell anyone else whether their job is 'empowering' is pretty pompous.

My point was that EatsBrainsAndLeaves was wrong in her claim. Again.

That's brilliant. I just read the 'Yes You Are' Post. Love it.

Thanks.

EAtsBrains I didn't consider myself a Feminist in the 'formal sense' until the latter part of my 20's. I remember being called a Feminist by a boy in A-Level English, and it was meant as an insult and at the time I took it as one, as all I'd known about Feminism was in a dry academic and mostly historical context.
It's only once I'd had a chance at life and realised that gender inequality was alive and well in our society that I realised that boy was not wrong, and it's only now I speak about it and want to learn more from other women who feel the same way.

EAtsBrains i'm new, never considered myself a feminist before but lots of little things have been adding up that way recently, so I want to learn as much as possible :)
I'm looking to read anything at all, I have no idea where I stand on the rad/lib scheme of things yet

Hi kash, welcome, yes I do think some see it as a dirty word (cf humourless feminists).

(I'm new here, so please be gentle). My question I suppose is quite a basic one- do you think in todays society 'Feminism' is a dirty word?

I ask, because I have always thought of myself as a Feminist, although as I get older, I am only just beginning to understand what that means. It seems increasingly apparent to me that many women of my generation see Feminism as irrelevant, but to me it seems more relevant than ever. Out of many women friends of mine, only a few recognise the importance of Feminism, and yet so many don't get it and a few look down their noses. Is this indicative of the general consensus?

Flat pack do you consider that male strippers and male escorts are empowered?

Flat pack do you consider that male strippers and male escorts are empowered?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves

With any practice like lapdancing that is supposed to be empowering for women - just think if it really was s empowering, why are men not doing it? They are not doing it because they know it is a lie. Lapdancing and assorted practices are not empowering at all/

There are plenty of male strippers and male escorts out there.

can you recommend any books I can read about it that are preferably free on kindle

Agreed. Fantastic

I've often struggled to articulate why lapdancing etc. is not empowerfulising - it's because if men laugh at you and shout how your arse is too big and your tits are too saggy, it's not empowering is it? It's only empowering if people give you positive feedback and say how beautiful you are and that means you're being validated by other people, not by yourself, when you take your clothes off and bask in the approval of others. I've never heard a stripper say she felt empowered by men telling her her breasts were too small or her vulva not the right shape. So in the end, the power is with the person who is giving the validation, not with the person begging for the validation.

Fantastic.

BrightEyes, for me feminism is about freedom from misogyny, and goes hand in hand with general freedom from misoxeny (hatred of strangers). It's all about having less hatred.

"So in the end, the power is with the person who is giving the validation, not with the person begging for the validation."

Absolutely

"For me, that is a huge part of feminism - liberating both men and women from the gender straitjacket society has put on them. That's why Fm is good for men also, if only they would realise it!!"

I disagree with this slightly. Gender roles aren't just 'straightjackets' they are also codified expectations and behaviours that represent and perpetuate unequal power between the sexes.

When you peice these roles together, they condition males to act as oppressor (mostly without realising they are being oppressive) and to condition females to accept the inevitability of their oppression by males (and in fact to glorify submission/pain/endurance/putting others first in women). And these codified behaviours when put together enable men as a class to continue to oppress women as a class.

So really men are only going to feel liberated from their role if being an oppressor truly isn't what they want, and in fact an equal relationship with women is what they want. This will mean relinquishing all the advantages being born male has given them over females.

I think many men, hand on heart would not actually want this. 'Advantages' are everything in this world and very few people are willing to forsake themselves for the general good.

I'm not saying that there aren't nice men out there who would be willing to forsake themselves and even find the rewards of companionship and collaboration with females worth the losses, but I think they are not the majority.

From what I've witnessed there is usually a massive gulf between what people say (I respect women as equals and the more in power the better) and what they really want (women-abusive porn on tap and to be 'one up' in all cases)

ooh, with regards to analysing the choices of getting yer tits out, I've just come across this brilliant book review and had a lightbulb moment
weekwoman.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/kate-gould-exposes-the-phallacies-surrounding-flashing-review/

She talks about the uselessness of giving rape alarms to women (rather than giving them guns or machetes or getting men to stop raping them)

"the effectiveness of which was entirely dependent on it gaining the intended response, recalling the female flasher, or the page 3 model, whose ?empowerment? relies upon getting the correct response ? that is, an empowerment which relies upon an outside actor. In other words, no empowerment at all, just the same tired rehearsal of gender power relations whereby men act, and women ?act? by attracting others to act upon us."

I've often struggled to articulate why lapdancing etc. is not empowerfulising - it's because if men laugh at you and shout how your arse is too big and your tits are too saggy, it's not empowering is it? It's only empowering if people give you positive feedback and say how beautiful you are and that means you're being validated by other people, not by yourself, when you take your clothes off and bask in the approval of others. I've never heard a stripper say she felt empowered by men telling her her breasts were too small or her vulva not the right shape. So in the end, the power is with the person who is giving the validation, not with the person begging for the validation.

For me, that is a huge part of feminism - liberating both men and women from the gender straitjacket society has put on them. That's why Fm is good for men also, if only they would realise it!!

I agree with this.

But for me more equality for everyone is the goal not just liberating women which is why I think feminism has been superseded by equality. I dont feel my gender defines me or links me just to one groups cause (in the case of feminism women).

I dont have a well thought out well developed stance on these kind of things but equality for all genders, races and people has always been close to my heart. So do we still need feminism or should it just be part of a wider equality movement?

Some women may want to 'choose' to kill men.

Giving people choice shouldn't always be legal...

As a feminist, I think feminism has a bit of a dilemma over the whole housewife question...which often results in acrimonious SAHM vs WOHM discussions on here.

On one hand there is the sense that something is wrong in the world as long as women are still predominantly the ones who give up or scale back their public role, earning capacity and ambitions when they have children, on the other hand is the argument that caring for children should be equally valued as anything else in the world.

I don't think it can simply be answered with a 'respect all choices' approach because any policy or social change you suggest in this area must either make one option or the other more attractive.