What is the patriarchy?

Happy to contribute to a thread about the royal family and the patriarchy if you want to start one, UC.

I'm not sure where "round here" is, OMC.

So go ahead and feel sorry for her.

My point about the King and his position in the patriarchy stands.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 18-Sep-12 12:44:17
She fell in love with her university flatmate.

Mmm. Bit more than that, given her nickname round here is "stalker". Went on the same OB expeditions (gap year) made sure she went to same university. She very definitely set her cap at him.

Still, we like her, and think the treatment of her is appalling. Still thinks she looks desperately thin, mind.

She fell in love with her university flatmate. I'm sure she thought a lot about whether that love was worth all this crap she is having to put up with.

Given she still got a fair amount of nasty articles when they weren't going out and her sister gets plenty of press attention (funnily enough, not her brother), it seems as soon as you are in any way associated with the second in line to rhe throne and you are a young woman, you are stuck. Yes, I do feel sorry for her.

Joyful, no, but I don't feel sorry for them either, especially her. She knew full well what she was getting into when she entered a relationship with him.

Someone being hounded doesn't make me joyful. Are you feeling joyful about it, Uppercut?

"Wonder if the press will be happy then"

IDK about that, but I would have thought feminists would be wetting their knickers with joy at the demise of the royal family, given that a King sits atop of the patriarchy. That's why Prince Philip is not King Philip, because despite being blood-Queen, Liz II would be subservient to him if he were.

Personally I happily see the line of succession go Charles III then Henry IX. If the royal family are going to implode at least those two should make it entertaining to watch.

I don't think that's true. Men are really judgy too, they are, honestly. And I can think of loads of people who're women and incredibly unfussed by other people's decisions.

I suspect any internet forum isn't the easist place to see that's true - but even here, I have found it really reassuring that almost whatever you say, there will be someone willing to put themselves in your shoes and think how best to help you or to sympathize. That's my experience anyway.

I do find the Kate thing very sad, but I also read the long thread about boycotting magazines in support of her, and on facebook people are sharing masses of things saying how it is an invasion of her privacy and no-one's business.

I know. I reckon it's a 50:50 chance of William giving up his claim to the throne in order to try and protect himself and his wife. Wonder if the press will be happy then

There isn't a single one of us who could go under public scrutiny without a whole range of opinions being expressed. Only the very thick skinned could take candid opinions without it getting to them.

I agree exotic - that Kate thread is awful.

So would I ,the DoctrineOS, luckily people did pay my 17yr old DS to babysit. However I am fully aware that many on here wouldn't have him to babysit under any circumstances.

Mulling it over I think that women are their own worst enemies, they are so judgemental of each other. Men just don't do it. On the thread about Kate and the topless photos her whole character is torn to shreds and apparently 'an inarticulate 16yr old could make better small talk.' Those saying it are not up there being judged and I doubt if they would do well if every word and every movement were analysed. If I asked my DSs for opinions they would look at me as if I was mad!
The whole of MN, practically, is women judging other women - to prove they are better. I don't think men do it- in general.

Xenia could be a wonderful role model if she stuck to the positive - she does so much harm when she pours vitriol on women who live their lives differently. The sad thing is that she can't see it.

Exotic that thread got nasty quite quickly IIRC. I was delighted that DS1's nursery had a male staff member and disappointed when he left, contacted all the local childminders including the only male one when I needed after school care and am just as happy for the neighbour's 17 year old DS as the 18 year old DD to babysit, or for the dads of DS1's friends to take him on a trip as the mums.

I would like to see more men in childcare. It's a good point about the independent means, though. I think where it can work is that it's an ideal "take your kids to work" job and nursery workers get a discount etc. I wonder how many men think about how they will manage childcare when selecting a career (I read the maternity policies of all the companies who offered me a job after graduation even though I had no immediate plans for kids)

Exotic that thread got nasty quite quickly IIRC. I was delighted that DS1's nursery had a male staff member and disappointed when he left, contacted all the local childminders including the only male one when I needed after school care and am just as happy for the neighbour's 17 year old DS as the 18 year old DD to babysit, or for the dads of DS1's friends to take him on a trip as the mums. Plenty of us would like to see more men in childcare. It's a g

I was attacked so badly on that one I had to request I was deleted - several people reported me. Depressingly I don't think times are changing.
The problem with childcare is that it doesn't pay a living wage. The young can do it if living with parents, or the older woman living with a partner, or a nanny where they live in. Until they pay decently, independent men and women can't do it. Meanwhile families want affordable (cheap) childcare. I wouldn't want my sons or daughters going into it because there are no long term prospects for higher pay as a nursery nurse. They are better off in teaching.

I think women not letting men do it does matter, but I think it matters to explore why some women do that. It's happening within a system where we expect men to get high-paid jobs and have certain 'masculine' characteristics, and we expect women to get lower-paid jobs and be sweet, loving, kind, and never angry or violent or abusive. This is a stupid model of how people are.

I don't think we will struggle for ever. I do think things are changing. You can see that from the fact that, even if no-one on that plane complained, loads of people on MN think it's wrong to assume a man can't sit next to a stranger's child on a plane.

We will struggle for ever I expect.When you get a situation where a perfectly blameless member of the public is asked to change his seat on a plane so that he doesn't sit next to a DC (because he is male) you are going to have problems - especially if no one challenges it. It has made me determined that I won't swap seats in a plane to accomodate paranoid mothers.

And women do it because they won't let men do it! When I tried to argue for the equality of men in childcare jobs I had to request that all my posts were deleted - it got so heated!

All jobs should be open to all - but you do actually have to let them look after your DCs.

Yes, that's the whole point, isn't it beach. I liked the way messy put it further up the thread: 'Instead of applying the patriarchal values of professional = fab / domestic = crap, and every woman jumping ship to the better paid, better respected occupations that men have traditionally enjoyed (as you would have them do), surely an alternative route would be to make motherhood both better paid and respected. Which would also effectively encourage more men to do it anyway.'

exotic - I hope you're wrong, and I certainly hope it will change, but I am more discourage than I used to be. Question is - how do we get it to change? Because surely until people accept men can do childcare, and women can do childcare, and it is a valuable job, we're going to struggle.

I am very thankful for it. I love the fact that I am a woman and I carry, birth and feed them - it has been the very best part of my life and I wouldn't swap it for anything. I can't see how paid employment of any sort beats that! You just work to live and it helps if you have a job that you love- you don't live to work. No one lies on their death bed thinking - I wish I had spent more time at the office! Generally, if you are elderly, you have worked out the important things in life which have nothing to do with power, status and money.
You don't actually have to have children.

Something very simple that hasn't really been pointed out yet, is that childcare is not valued because women do it.

And women do the lion's share of childcare because women carry, birth and feed babies.

The rest of the system (patriarchy) has developed by taking advantage of this fact of nature.

That is patriarchy.

All the rest follows on from this difference in female/male biology. That is the root of our problem.

I think that she has admitted it. I don't think that anyone minds the DCs father doing the childcare - they just wouldn't pay for a man to do it. Some would if they had older boys - but I think it would be very rare for anyone with a baby girl. This is where it all falls down- women like Xenia want top jobs, but they also want affordable childcare done by other women.

Incidentally, even Xenia can't seem to bring herself to admit what her idea necessitates (less intelligent/successful people in childcare), and Xenia, surely that is telling?

That's not an answer though, is it? That's an insult.

I don't think men in childcare is a non-starter. My DH wants to look after ours when we have them and I hope he will. His dad looked after him. My brother and SIL are both part-time and share (and they more or less do share). I really hope it is beginning to change. SGM pointed out on another thread (to use one poster as an example), that after having male childcare at first just because it worked out that way, she subsequently sought it out.

So I do think there are people who want it for themselves as well as for others.