What is the patriarchy?

My belief is the laws to prevent women and children from working in the mines wasn't because of any social conscience (it may have been dressed up as that) but driven by the greed of the mine owners. Because advances in technology meant only half the workforce was needed it was the easiest way to 'sack' those who had been earning a wage and maximise their profits.

Very interesting thread. Following on the link about street harrassment (what a great name for it!) I once read about a feminist study where women were placed at four entrances to a park - two were told to smile and two were told to look neutral. The non-smiling women were much more likely to be addressed by men and told to "cheer up" or some such comment than those who looked happy. The men involved in this kind of "harrassment" were not intentionally being horrible or threatening at all, but it does suggest that men feel they have a right to be greeted by women. or for their day to be brightened up by women in some way. It's hard to imagine that they would have addressed neutral-expressioned men in the same way or that women would address men in the same way on the street. That's patriarchy.

Things have improved though. I know a lady, now in her 90s, who had to give up work in the late 1940s because she married a policeman and policemen's wives were not allowed to work back then. The rationale behind it was that, because of shift work, policeman needed their wives (or, presumably, mothers if they were single) to be on-hand at all times of the day to cook their dinner etc!

I'd also like to say that earlier on this thread someone was told off for having the wrong tone in their reply to someone else and, of course, we need to be respectful to eachother. However, other comments such as Saudi women being as hidden as a "Surrey housewife" go unchallenged. I am not a housewife, nor am I from Surrey, but I find such a comment extremely offenisve as well as ridiculously inaccurate. I'd like to think that any feminists who also happen to be Surrey housewives would feel able and welcome to comment on here without having their role or place of origin so denigrated. Sorry for the long post but I feel quite strongly about this.

Yes, and women at work need to shout from the rooftiops that they are brilliant, top dog and they want more pay, much more. They don't often. I do try to make sure they get better at it. Ssay I am the best. I will move over 3 yeras for higher pay whatever it takes. I will not think I am lucky to be here but am the best in the business and deserve a massive pay packet. We need women to adopt that attitude which many men have too in order to get higher pay. Every single day of the year I fight for higher pay on things or suggest they go to someone cheaper and less qualified as I cannot discount what I charge. It works very well.

Things are changing. My children's father was one (we think jokingly) told by his headmaster he would not be getting a pay rise because I earned so much.

"that male doctors be given jobs over women because they support families"
I used to know a single mum with a high flying job who was nevertheless paid less than her male counterparts. She justified this in terms of women with children being less productive then men.

What always amazes me is that the original official reason for women being paid less/banned from certain jobs, ie they didn't have families to support, is no longer relevant (now many women are the single breadwinners), yet new reasons will always pop up to justify the inequality and keep it going.

To be that's also patriarchy, the lies told to women to justify the status quo.

On the question of whether we want to be Victorian sacred flowers who never lift a heavy package or go down a pit I would rather have the freedom to be exploited by capitalist bosses on the same terms as men just as I wanted and used the freedom to work until I went into labour and return full time to work after 2 weeks. These are freedoms. Now most women might not want to exercise them but we need that freedom. 100 years ago many of us simply because of your sex would not have been allowed to practise the work we do (and it was not mining in my case).

In the early 1930s after the market crash my grandfather's scrap book shows some articles mentioning his propoals that male doctors be given jobs over women because they support families and a suggestion that locally they ban women doctors in hospitals. It was not passed thankfully.

We have all seen this and experienced this, right?

This is the patriarchy.

My understanding of why they got banned from the mines (and had their hours reduced elsewhere) is because of the growing idea of separate spheres for men and women amongst the middle class philanthropists, the idealisation of motherhood (in many ways a patronising response to feminist demands for education) and working class men taking on the idea of the single breadwinner family as a way to emulate the middle classes.

Problem was that the ideal of the angel in the house was just that, an ideal for most working class women.

I think that's a separate issue maybe - the fact is, they did go down the pit until they were banned. They weren't banned because someone was shocked at the awful conditions for everyone, they were banned because people were treating women differently from men.

It's better to remember what women did than indulge in annoying '1950s neverland' shite about women 'never working' before the last century, and it's better to treat men and women equally.

I'm not sure about this--is it better feminism if women are allowed to go down t'pit, or better if they're kept out?

As for the pictures from Russia, there were more women doing manual jobs in the 50s and 60s quite simply because with Stalin's prison camps and the way the USSR fought the Germans, so many men were dead.

The concept of patriarchy is accepted by many/most strands of feminism. For example, radical feminists and most liberal feminists accept the existence of patriarchy. It's also accepted by many non-feminists. Lots of people mistakenly believe that anyone who blames patriarchy for systematic discrimination against women and girls, must be a radical feminist.

One of the differences between radical and liberal feminism is how to deal with patriarchy. Radical feminism wants to remove patriarchy completely, liberal feminism wants change parts of it.

I think Wisdom should also remember, for example, that women worked down the mines in the UK until the Mines Act of 1842 when they were banned. Who banned them? Parliament. Was it women that banned them? No, because there were no women in Parliament.

He should also remember that women were doing the sorts of jobs he mentioned in World War 2 and many others besides. (An aunt of mine was a lumberjack - or lumberjill as they were known). What happened at the end of the war? Women were dispatched back to the kitchen. What they were apparently competent enough to do in wartime they were not competent enough do in peace time apparently because men wanted those jobs back.

Patriarchy in action.

I come from a family of miners and from what I've been told, yes the work was bloody hard and sometimes dangerous, but there was a lot of comradery amongst the miners and respect for them from the communities that were centred around the mines. Let's not also forget that miners wives didn't sit on their arses all day. They kept house, which was a lot bloody harder than it is today, in horrible conditions, as well as took in sewing, ironing, just to get by. Plus many women died in childbirth, and DV was a big issue, especially when the mines were shut down.

Today, patriarchy for me is more about men's dominance of the public domain. This is clearly historical as in the past the separation between male= public / female=domestic was very clearcut. But it still remains today to a large extent: in our attitudes towards women in the public domain, in men's dominance of sport, media, the workplace.

When women feel perfectly at ease walking down the street at night, and are adequately represented in politics and the media (and not just the pretty ones) then I'll start to question whether P exists or not....

I thought the point about Saudi Arabia was good too - really shocking and sad, but completely relevant, isn't it?

It's really scary and I suppose it shows how language matters, too.

That's ok - I was going to vacate before I embarrassed my self with my next post which would have referenced Saudi Arabia but xenia's done that already.

I wasn't trying to get you to vacate the thread, I just didn't understand quite what was getting to you, and something clearly was.

I think it's wonderful if women do road works. One reason I am pretty fit at my age is I often carry heavy things around for work, boxes, move loads. It's what people need to feel good and be fit and normal. When women have their feet bound or put into high heels or long veils they cannot operate as people, are curtailed and are less free.

Sorry,LRD - will vacate this thread.Threads about 'The Patriarchy' get me a little rattled.

Adn in some coun tries it is getting worse. In Saudi at the moment - 2012 - there is a new trend of not naming women in public in documents and the like so they become as hidden as a Surrey housewife even if they are a leading doctor.

Well, regardless of any cutting or pasting Vesuvia I found your response and the others helpful. So thank you.

Crikey, what's with the tone wisdom?

Well done Vesuvia - you win the 'cutting and pasting' star for today - though I notice you couldn't find any pictures from the UK.

wisdomoflollygag wrote - "A Patriarchy is the male equivalent of a Matriarchy."

It's often claimed that families with no resident father are matriarchal. They are in the sense that the woman has to become 'head of the household', but a family is not an entire society. The mother and children are still living in a patriarchal society. It even applies when the absence of fathers occurs on a huge scale. For example, all the nations that fought the two World Wars were patriarchal before, during and after those wars.

Or, lollygag, you will be trying to discuss with other women what a term means and a man will come along and tell you you have got it all wrong.

Let's look at your example of coal-mining, shall we? Massive industry a hundred years ago. Men went down the mines, they were the waged labourers, women stayed at home and looked after the children, that is once they had survived childbirth, which was, in those days, more dangerous than going down the mines (higher levels of maternal mortality than death in the mines) with what money their men gave them. Once a man had finished his shift, he was done, his wife washed his dirty clothes, cooked his dinner, looked after the children so he was not disturbed and so on, her shift did not end. All the man had to do was provide some money for her to run house and home, but often the pay packet would be pissed down the pub before she saw it, and the man would come home and treat her to a beating.

Whatever you see now has historical roots. The reasons you see men in those jobs are historical, for the same reasons you see women in certain jobs (usually caring, nurturing, domestic jobs, if you are talking working class labour). Which do you reckon gets paid more, and who do you reckon finds it easier to get to work once children come along?

wisdomoflollygag wrote - "if you drive down a road in a Patriarchy you will come across groups of roadworkers who are making repairs or laying new drainage pipes or resurfacing the road and the workers will all be women.It will be similar in the coal mines and the steel works"

In a patriarchy, not all miners or road workers are women, but it's also true that not all such workers are men.

Examples of photos of miners, who happen to be women:

in the USA
www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/U2050847B/linda-sabo-in-saginaw-mine

in Australia
www.nswmin.com.au/Images/UserUploadedImages/62/telfer_04.jpg

Examples of photos of road workers, who happen to be women:

in Russia
englishrussia.com/2011/08/31/all-truth-about-soviet-women/

Capitalism or communism, it doesn't matter, they're all patriarchy.

Essentially a Patriarchy is a system where women are subjugated.So,for instance,if you drive down a road in a Patriarchy you will come across groups of roadworkers who are making repairs or laying new drainage pipes or resurfacing the road and the workers will all be women.It will be similar in the coal mines and the steel works - it's a horrible system if your'e a woman.