What is the patriarchy?

I would say it was a good role model.
I was trying to say something quite straightforward yesterday and tying myself in knots. Of course you can't work out in advance how people may act in a secure relationship, or in 5 years time, or when a child is born -but if you happen to be a 23rd old, independent young woman and a boyfriend moves in who only ever does anything if asked (with nagging) and leaves total chaos behind him why would you put up with him? He is bad news-he is unlikely to change -so I would either make him or, if he is resistant, get him to move out. However much you love him is it worth it? A lifetime of being general dogsbody?
Of course you do things for each other, but it is a two way thing and basic fairness. (nice to agree with Xenia for a change!)

My older son cooks for his younger brothers every night (and breakfasts/brunch at weekends which he is doing now). I don't know if that counts as molly coddling younger ones or a good role model as man as principal house cook.

I certanily agree about not enabling male learned helplessness and feeling able to accept you are not all knowing wonderful Mother God and no one else can change a nappy the way you do or as well as you do. Let its father do it and if he does it wrong or differently just accept that as the price you pay for your freedom or he might even do it better than you do.

By the way I am not saying no one should do things for other people in relationships but it is just about basic fairness. If you both work full time why on earth would any woman put up with doing more than a man? If in the 1970s that was my view and I was able to ensure that why in 2012 do we still have women who work full time and then do all the housework whilst summy Jim is out playing golf for hours every weekend simply because he has a penis?

In the meantime we should all be bringing up our DCs (of either gender) to do household tasks from the earliest possible age and not being the dogsbody that does it all. DCs do as you do and not as you say, so it is fairly useless talking about the patriarchy if your 9 yr old comes out of school and hands you their bag to carry - without you handing it back and saying 'what did you last servant die of?' It is the little things that count. There are still women on here packing their yr7 DCs school bag - or checking their school bag!
I think that too many women take these things on themselves without thought - and unconsciously a DC takes it in as the norm.
If your DC isn't good with looking after the baby- go out and leave him to it- even if you just walk around the block. There is no need to issue instructions - he is the father NOT the babysitter.

I agree Eats. Me and DH do 50:50 childcare but I am always aware of any shifts in the split of this and housework, and I also try and flag to my friends who both work FT but claim their DH is too tired to help with the baby for 10 mins that it should be fair.

I have just been out for a run - got back and DH is doing the ironing. I am out most of the day - DS is cooking the meal- I don't know what he is cooking and doubt if he does as he likes to experiment, so this means he will have to do some shopping.
Too many parents don't let their DCs do much. Start any threads on here about 4 yr old helping and it is akin to sending boys up chimneys to some people! Yet the TImes yesterday had an article saying that if you wanted an emotionally strong DC you needed to get them doing chores and that a 3 yr old was perfectly capable of clearing up. There are people who won't let an 8yr old chop vegetables or boil a kettle. You need to start young.
To harp back to my DSs flat mate. He was a good friend whose parents asked him to move out (no surprises why)and he was just a slob.Luckily it was a short term measure and he is now with his girlfriend. They are both 23yrs old with jobs. He won't have changed. That is what I meant by starting as you mean to go on. She shouldn't do it all. It is quite possible that 10yrs down the line they will have 2 children and she will be posting I'm MN complaining that he won't even pick ip his dirty clothes from the floor. They are young, able bodied adults in 21st century, with full time work- why would she do it? My grandmother wouldn't and she was born in late 19th century.
It isn't an abusive relationship, they love each other and yet she is doing all the housework. ( or maybe I am doing her an injustice and she has him sorted).

Gosh, Xenia, I agree with you for the second time ever!
I don't think that you can say that women are raised to put up with shit, most women put up with shit - and then when I point out that western women can earn their own living, don't need a meal ticket and don't need to put up with it, I get ridiculed over the cleaning of bathrooms.
I agree- why are you ironing his shirt? I did it for a short time whenI was at home. I didn't do it before DCs. I do it sometimes now but it isn't an issue because he does far more ironing than I do.
I come from a family of strong women - my mother never saw the need for feminism - she grew up in a matriarchal home. My grandfather was very laid back and ' happy go lucky' and her mother was the driving force.

There is always a difficult balance between - oh woe is me, nothing is my fault, it's the Cameron Governments or the bankers or men and she was brought up in such a sexist way that she does not even notice that it is unfair her brothers do nothing and she is on her feet clearing up all day or she cannot escape a relationship where she is abused because of how she feels tied to the abuser.

it is certanily not easy but we do not just want women as victims. We want more women like ef and I are who are able to say that versy first time the man might suggest we iron a shirt - what on earth do you mean, not on your nelly - here is the iron and make sure mine are done by morning. We certainly need to work very hard to educate our own daughters not to accept sexism. I suspect some families are just full of strong women - I know my great grandmother even in 1910 would not have accepted unfairness at home from what I have heard. Her daughter was widowed so obviously was pretty strong and competent herself and in the 60s my father did the night feeds (bottle feeds) and hoovered every weekend etc etc. I certainly in the 80s would never have tolerated a sexist marriage.

Other women are from a line of cowed pathetic weak women who look after men and accept unfairness every day. It is changing that culture which will help us. Of course given 30% of the planet is due to be Muslim with women as second class citizens in a decade or two there is a massive risk all recent gains will be totally lost.

And yet when I point out that you don't need to put up with it, and you don't need a man in your life, I am in trouble.
I was brought up with brothers and I wasn't taught to make excuses for men's behaviour- in fact I can't even think of any.
I agree that relationships are never simple, and you can't necessarily spot future problems, but it would be a good idea to start at home with the men and DCs that you know- with my brothers we did exactly the same amount of housework - we knew exactly whose turn it was to wash up etc.
I did more childcare because I loved it and rate it way above paid employment. Since I was at home I did more housework. However once I was back at work DH did an equal share, and at the moment he does more because he is working from home. Things are not static.

I think that we all want love, and so you put up with things in a relationship because you want it to work.

I know I have. Put up with behaviour that I know as a feminist I shouldn't. There's also the "boys will be boys" message that is drummed into us, the implication being the egalitarian man is few and far between and that it doesn't do to have too many standards else you'll end up an old maid.

Speaks a very happy old maid-in-training!!

On reflection ignore my last few posts. Relationships are never simple. It does work both ways - my nephew is in an emotionally abusive relationship and we all wish that he would realise it and get out.

He would have asked him to move out - he was saved any unpleasantness by the girlfriend taking him on.
I agree that I am being too simplistic. It is easy to make mistakes - having said all that I did -I once agreed to marry a man after 3 days!! Luckily we don't get around to it and parted soon after.
You do however need to be assertive.

I think that it is quite simplistic, yes, so thanks for coming back and saying so!

Even your DS, who wasn't in love with his lazy flatmate, presumably opted for something other than sitting down after the first week and saying "shape up or ship out"?

No exotics you are being silly, by pretending that such complex things as relationships and the roles of women in society are straight forward and by refusing to admit that things are more complicated than that. Perhpas you are in the fortunate position never to have experienced the things we are discussing; if that is so then please have the humility to accept that these things may not be as uncomplicated as you imagine. Your comment higher up the thread about observing a man when he has had a drink as that may show if he is potentially the sort of man who will change his character, is naive in the extreme and shows no understanding of how complex our characters and behaviour patterns can be - not to mention an equally naive view of the nature of drinking/getting drunk.

I dare say that I am being too simplistic. I have known people walk out on a marriage half way through the honeymoon.
Speaking personally I never saw it as a given that I would marry and have children- I was quite prepared to be a career person and single.
People on the whole will get away with things if you let them get away with it.
All I am really saying- but very badly- is rather than keep fighting the collective, start with the individual that you know.

I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you exotic.
"They must have seen some signs before"
There are some men [maybe women too,but I dont know any personally],who do change after marriage.
I know this from a very close relative[I am not talking about myself].She says it has happened to her.And it is sad.She says he changed when they were on honeymoon.And I believe her.
It is possible that you and I and others would indeed have seen some signals beforehand,but I doubt it in this particular case.I think once he was married he reverted to his true self.They didnt spend that many hours together in the great scheme of things before marriage,and that may have been part of the problem,who knows.
I have also known it happen,to another relative,where the man changed when he got engaged,and the person I know,wisely,broke off the engagement.He subsequently did the same think to a future girlfriend and again that gf broke it off.

Exotic I am really confused by your posts - abusive people home in on a victim/it is not difficult to see what is going on straight away and end the relationship.

What is it you think abused are homing in on, if not someone for whom that would be a difficult thing to do?

My DS had a flat mate who drove him mad because he seemed incapable of doing the slightest thing in the way of housework. He heaved a sigh of relief when he moved out to live with his girlfriend. He isn't going to change. The girlfriend must be doing it for him- if they go into have children she will have an extra child. After the first week she needs to have sat him down and given him a stark choice- his share or out . That is when it is easy.

I think that you are getting rather silly. It is well known that abusive people will home in on a victim - they read the signs without even being conscious of it.
The bottom line is that in history women needed a male earner. They don't today - they can all do it alone- it is difficult but you can get out.

Oh OK so children are trapped, but adult women should just say "no thanks" the minute someone swears at them or hits them, even if that is what they have experienced all their lives? So could you just let us all know what age these women should be a suddenly able to do that by, then? Trapped at 17 but 2 weeks later at 18 you just say, "oh I'm an adult now, so that's not OK anymore," do you? And you just never let the huge reprecussions of being brought up by that affect you ever again?

And before we all get married as long as we see how our potential partners treat their bathrooms then all should be OK? What if he stops cleaning the bathroom but instead of noticing straight away we're a bit preoccupied with the stress of becoming a parent and adapting to new lifestyle and, also, we notice that lots of other families are living this way so what on earth are we making a fuss about? No, no, we should just say at the first sign of the new non-cleaning of bathrooms - "off you go matey!" Oh, except, hang on, how are we going to support the new baby and pay for the joint mortgage on our own now we are only on maternity pay? Oh we'll just find a childminder for new baby and go and get a well paid carreer, shall we? Oh, except hang on, we are in a low paid job because that is what our experience of women in society has led us to expect and we forgot to stand up for that before we had the baby - and anyway, he WAS cleaning the bathroom at that point wasn't he??

Oh goodness it's all so complicated and there are so many things to consider.....oh except no it isn't, we should have just said no at the first swear word and dirty loo. Now why didn't we all think of that?? Because I look around and see rather a lot of us who found it slightly more complicated!

They must have seen some signs before. They must have done something. You can't have an equal relationship based on mutual respect and suddenly they do a complete change. Seeing them with too much to drink early on us a good idea- if they are likely to change character they will do it then.
Sadly abusive men home in on vulnerable women which is probably why they avoid me. I would either say 'on your bike, sunshine'! or I would talk them to death getting them to explain and going to Relate.
You do need to bring up your DCs to be strong. My parents never hit me or put me down and there is a lot of strength in knowing they would always support me.
Therefore- I am probably being unfair - if you are brought up with abuse and no support you may well find yourself giving second, third chances and being trapped.
The best thing people can do is make sure that their DCs don't put up with less than the best.(DSs too - many have abusive partners)
Make sure they know that you don't need a partner and it is better not to have one than have an unequal one.

Exotic have you read the stories on here about men who change character once their DP is pregnant or has given birth?

That's a bit black and white exotic. Not everyone is as sure of themselves as you appear to be.

Feminism starts at home with the individual. Don't get involved with a man who doesn't support it. No able bodied woman needs a meal ticket .