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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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What are your thoughts on this Andrea Dworkin quote?

66 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 09:17

I love this quote. Wondered what women here thought about it?

""It is not in becoming a whore that a woman becomes an outlaw in this man's world; it is in the possession of herself, the ownership and effective control of her own body, her seperateness and distinctness, the integrity of her body as hers, not his.

Prostitution may be against the written law, but no prostitute has defied the prerogatives or power of men as a class through prostitution. No prostitute provides any model for freedom or action in a world of freedom that can be used with intelligence and integrity by a woman; the [happy hooker] model exists to entice counterfeit female sexual revolutionaries, gullible liberated girls, and to serve the men who enjoy them" ~ Andrea Dworkin, 'Right-Wing Women'"

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 18:41

True, brains, we're using sex as a category. I think we are also using gender, though, because we are discussing the social constructs?

Uppercut · 13/09/2012 18:40

LRDtheFeministDragon
"You seemed surprised we were using gender as a category. I would venture to suggest it's quite common in feminist circles, you see. "

EatsBrainsAndLeaves
"We are actually using sex as a category. And gender is a social construct i.e. masculine and feminine. "

Do feminists use gender or sex categories in relation to their theories?

There seems to be some confusion on the matter.

Uppercut · 13/09/2012 18:34

Asking for the specifics of feminist theory is hardly an expression of 'surprise'. The response I got was most unsurprising.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 18:30

We are actually using sex as a category. And gender is a social construct i.e. masculine and feminine.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 18:15

You seemed surprised we were using gender as a category. I would venture to suggest it's quite common in feminist circles, you see.

Uppercut · 13/09/2012 18:14

And you think I'm discussing something else because...?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 18:01

uppercut, you know this is the feminism section, right?

Discussing gender issues is kinda ... what we do.

Uppercut · 13/09/2012 17:59

Sounds like a great tarring brush.

seeker · 13/09/2012 17:39

Men as a group. Obviously not all individual men are like this. But the structure of society puts men as a group in a position where they occupy most of the positions of power, and where the assumption is that power and control is the the preserve of the male.

Uppercut · 13/09/2012 17:24

EatsBrainsAndLeaves
"Feminists talk about class of men as a political class. It is men as a class who oppress women as a class. This is basic feminism leithlurker. "

Some men, most men or all men?

JulianReal · 13/09/2012 16:24

Thanks LRD! I did just as you suggested and hopefully the first one will get removed.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that Mary W.'s work ought not be ignored or minimised here--especially here, as you say!!! Smile I'm sorry that I was so careless, and, um, wrong, in attributing ALL class analysis of sex to ol' Marx! Especially since he was so awful about the matter of women. Blush So, folks, here's a link to her classic text, A Vindication of the Rights of Woman:

www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3420

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 16:13

No trouble.

You can't delete, but you can click on 'report' (in the blue bar with your name, on the right) and ask MNHQ to please delete it 'at poster's request'. Then they'll come along and do so.

But I doubt anyone will mind, loads of people double-post by accident anyway.

I do feel it's really important to give Wollstonecraft her due. She is immensely more influential in terms of feminism than Marx, I think, and there's a certain irony, isn't there, to discussing women as a class and not discussing Mary!

(But I am biased cos I like her work Grin)

JulianReal · 13/09/2012 16:10

Thanks, LRDtheFeministDragon! I appreciate the reminder of her work!! (I don't know how to delete the first version of my comment. I made some corrections and reposted it. Sorry for the confusion to all here. If there's a moderator, I welcome them to delete the first of the two comments, and hope that others will understand that LRD is responding to my only remark here so far.)

JulianReal · 13/09/2012 16:07

I want to acknowledge that the discussion was opened to women. I am not a woman. I wondered as I read through the comments, how many of the contributors here are women and how many are men. Assumingperhaps incorrectlythat some if not many are men, I address what follows particularly to them. Regardless, I hope the lengthy response that follows enriches the conversation.

The idea that gender/sex is a classed system, or that race is a classed system, or that economic position is a classed system, stems from the social/political/economic analytic work of Karl Marx. Many consider this work to be of great value in organising socially against oppression and it has been used effectively in this regard, particularly in South America. "Class" is socially existent: Marx wasn't making it up; he was analysing its origins and how to combat its oppressive and dehumanising effects on the root level.

That is what I think about when I read some of the comments above, which appear to dismiss the reality of class oppression or to greatly minimise classed existence altogether.

To those who would deny or ignore such a reality, particularlybut not onlyif you are male, I would ask each of you to consider this: oppressors, or those atop any given social-political-economic hierarchy, generally want to deny the system itself, even while we reap the benefits, advantages, privileges, power, control, and access to resources that comes with being positioned, structurally, as an oppressor.

Anyone need only look at the history of England to understand economic class power and oppression. To understand it with regards to race, just look at the history of South Africa. To understand it with regard to gender, one need only look at most Western and non-Western societies.

To imagine the places in the world where gender/sex, race, and economic class become powerful combining sources of gross exploitation and abuse, consider only the reality of sexual slavery in the world. When I consider the difference in power, control, authority, and access to resources between these two groupspoor girls of color from relatively poor countries, disenfranchised ethnic groups, or police-harassed neighborhoods, and their oppressors: white men from wealthier countries, enfranchised ethnic groups, or police-protected neighbhorhoodsI am left without a means of comprehending such horror if I toss out the reality of class-level oppression.

Class theories about economics, race, or sex alone are not adequate to understand or combat that particular global atrocity. I have not been subjected to sexual slavery, to being sold into it, to being trafficked from country to country, to being forced or coerced to please a man (in fact, many men: hundreds of men) who I don't know who is three, four, five, and six times as old as I was between the ages of six and ten. Because of this, I am mindful of the structural positions of privilege and power I occupy socially: I am not poor, I am not of color, and I am not female.

I need to understand the concept "class oppression" to make sense of what is happening there. I don't accept that the cause is simply the 'bad fortune' of the millions of girls used and abused in those ways each day and night until somehow they escape or die. If it were only bad fortune, the demographics of the abused and the abusers wouldn't be so glaringly different.

Often, especially among white men on the Left, I find that unjust and inhumane economic class and racial class systems can be acknowledged and even fought against. But for some reason, the sexual class system is ignored by those men.

A radical white feminist died recently. Her name was Shulamith Firestone. She started a few majority-white radical feminist groups in NYC. Her most famous work, The Dialectics of Sex, was among the first feminist books (1970) to describe gender as a classed system of oppression--of women by men. I recently reread the opening to the first chapter of that book:

"Sex class is so deep as to be invisible. Or it may appear as a superficial inequality, one that can be solved by merely a few reforms, or perhaps by the full integration of women into the labour force. But the reaction of the common man, woman, and child - 'That? Why you can't change that! You must be out of your mind!' - is the closest to the truth. We are talking about something every bit as deep as that."

But as this thread began referencing Dworkin, if you haven't read it yet, I found this piece of writing which relates to the one that opens this discussion: "Prostitution and Male Supremacy". Here is the link:

www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/MichLawJourI.html

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 16:05

Julian, I think you will find that Mary Wollstonecraft was referring to women as a 'class' well before Marx. And quite likely other people too, but she's the one who springs to mind.

JulianReal · 13/09/2012 16:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 13:22

Women are oppressed as a class by men as a class. that is the definition of patriarchy. Women as a class fighting the patrirachy i.e. oppression by men as a class, is the definition of feminism.

Otherwise we are all just individuals doing our own thing with no common political interests.

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Leithlurker · 13/09/2012 12:55

I am not going to be pedantic about this but I find it difficult to see how a such a sweeping generlisation is sustainable Eats, were we to encounter the argument that all women, or even a more narrow group, all feminists hate the colour pink, we would object and rightly so. I still wait to see evidence that she or feminists have any sociological backing for using description. Otherwise it is just a way to use emotive language for political purpose. Bit like saying all disabled people are vulnerable.

namechangeguy · 13/09/2012 12:07

Thank you for the response Eats.

Re this OP, I now realise that Eats was asking for women to respond, so I will withdraw.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 11:51

"The real life excuse doesn't cut it when umpteen other teaching have popped up in various threads between then and now."

Yes I started threads that I basically am not really following anymore because there are too many posts for me to keep up with - I dont have time! Starting a new thread takes 2-3 minutes tops. But pm me at any time if you have asked a question on a thraed I havent answered. I will go back and answer it.

And spelling? Really who cares!

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 11:46

Class means a political glass i.e. a group of people who are put into a group in order to fight for civil rights. So black people are a political class who identify themselves as a group to fight racism.

May not be able to look back here until this very late evening by the way. Real life gets in the way.

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 11:44

Hi I must spend about 20 - 30 minutes a day on mumsnet tops and dont come here every day. If there is a question I havent answered please tell me. I am not ignoring it.

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 11:30

hully, I think you mean 'quotation'. Wink But yes, that's wince-inducing.

namechange, I don't see where she's not responding to questions? You do know that 'not answering as I, namechangeguy, would like' is not the same as 'not answering'. Give her a break and let her come back in her own time.

namechangeguy · 13/09/2012 11:26

This reply has been deleted

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Hullygully · 13/09/2012 11:03

Soz, misogynist. No harm intended.