Is drag sexist?

Maybe it's a bit like the a privileged class (in this case boys who are also light skinned so twice privileged) poking fun at people who are not privileged on three counts generally poor, black and female, and in the case of drag the men are still men no matter how much ambivalence they may feel about that..

It's great I found this thread, as I read about this website/youtube channel in the Independent today:

and didn't know why it left me feeling so uneasy. It's from the shitgirlsay website, which is apparently huge. Now, on one level it's taking the piss out of the banality of text/web speech and 'youth' communication, which is fine - but they only show girls being dumb and stupid (boys presumably soliliquise) . And in the youtube clip it's a man in drag saying all the dumb lines (even funnier!)

Now, I do think it's very hard with comedy to define what is offensive and what is pushing boundaries (see endless debates in press about 'offensive' comics). And comedy has to be about taking the usual/everyday and making it ridiculous or humorous otherwise it's just social commentary, isn't it? Men with chest hair and strong jaws dressed up in sparkly dresses, dolly-parton wigs and make-up do look ridiculous, so there is the setting (although not the essence) for comedy right there.

What is important, I think, is the intent. Lots of posters have already pointed out they have seen drag acts where they have felt deeply uncomfortable. However, I have seen plenty of straight comedy acts where I felt strongly that the comedian hated women.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but I agree that drag can be very uncomfortable for women in the audience sometimes. Do you think it's because we are all being asked to laugh particularly loudly at a joke because an ugly woman is saying it?

Remember watching Pete Burns on Celebrity Big Brother a few years ago, used to really like his style and music, but he had become a caricature it seemed.

What shocked me was his hatred and venom to two of the women there, and I couldn't see why, until it clicked..they were what he wanted to be, and his vitriol was jealousy and envy. Not always true of drag acts , but there is a misogyny there that can be vicious.

"Drag comedy is sexist. Imitating a caricature of a woman is no different than imitating a caricature of a black person, an Asian person, a disabled person etc etc. It's promoting hateful stereotypes in all cases and it's wrong."

Hear! hear! Lurking

When Kathy Burke is being Perry she is 'playing a role' - Kevin is the actual stereotype teenager. In a similar way when Watson and Oliver do it - the script is written and a female is playing the male role. That is very different from a 'drag act' which is all about stereotyping for jokes. The drag artist might feel more liberated, able to be more outspoken with the make-up caked on- in glittery clothes, but the process of getting into that state is to embody a stereotype that does no favours for real women.

I think a lot of films show male caricatures (maybe especially action flicks) and I question their value as entertainment or as a mirror to the reality of the male experience. Not that I personally have experienced the male experience so I am in no position to judge, but some films seem to show characters that are two dimensional at best.

Drag has always made me uncomfortable. What it does more than anything else is portray women as 'other' just as blackface did/does.

I agree with Limitedperiodonly's impressions of attitudes in the gay community; I have had similar impressions over the years. I don't think despise is too strong a word. I don't think that feeling is limited to the gay male community either. There are many men with very mixed feelings about women. Not mixed in the sense of being bisexual, but a combination of fear and desire.

'I can get a bit uncomfortable with some drag acts. They seem to be sarcastic/bitter in their comedy. Aggressive really. '
I agree with you there Tiggy, and I agree with your distinctions between female impersonators and drag artists and transvestites. Danny LaRue didn't raise any hackles, or Hinge and Bracket. With drag artists I have felt pilloried, as a woman.

I see Monty Python as comedy of the absurd and more situational than drag, and don't see any intention to single out women for the ridiculous treatment. It's an equal opportunity poking of fun more than anything anti women or anti men.

Am also thinking of Paul O'Grady (who I find quite amusing and very likeable on R2 god help me)

I often think it's interesting that inititally he became known as Lily Savage (who was fairly hideous and frightening, but also quite astute... )
Interesting that having 'been' LS, O'Grady is able to be very much the same character.... without the wigs, heels and frocks.

How about the possibility that when in drag - i.e. outside the tramlines of 'masculine' roles - some performers are able to say what's deemed unsayable when they're in what's seen as their 'conventional' costume?

Also, how about Cathy Burke, Catherine Tate, and that young comedian who did a Boris Johnson skit and also a chubby schoolboy (she's contemporary - I'm not talking about Jimmy Cranky...)

And does Eddy Izzard count as drag? Or how about Julian Clary - blingy and flamboyant, very, very, camp, but no false breasts or dresses, IIRC.

How about the possibility that some male comics, being 'quirky', as comics often are, simply enjoy wearing dresses, heels, makeup, jewellery, etc?
Is that in itself taken to mean that they're denigrating women? I really don't see how it does.

Yes.

It's a way to denigrate and reduce the 'power' of the female. To make them laughable, hideous, frightening. Look at all the pantomime dames - none of them are 'normal' - all freakish creatures.

I'm talking about the views of a particular group of people which is why I used italics for the word 'some' and bolding for the word 'do'.

Sometimes you can only spot the difference between the men who see women as equal human beings and those who pretend to like us for appearance's sake, when the second group don't notice or care that you're watching and listening.

I've overheard too many conversations about women's repellent bodies to remain unwary around certain groups of men or certain things - drag is one of them - until I can trust them.

What kicked it off for me was 20 years ago listening to two gay men talking about straight sex and one of them saying in disgust that 'women can never get themselves clean.'

I imagine he didn't indulge in anal sex.

I've worked and socialised with a lot of gay men and some, not all, of them are not very nice about women when they don't think anyone of any importance is listening.

It's not just misogynists who do it. All sorts of people who harbour hatred and fear of people who are different do it too.

Do they have to hate women? Can you not equally say that they merely do not find women sexually attractive, and leave it at that? Despise is a very strong feeling.

"I'm a man in a dress, don't I look fantastic."

This is what makes me uncomfortable about some reasons for drag.

There are some cross-dressers or pre or post op transsexuals who do think they are better than women, and so do the men who find them attractive.

Not better-looking than some women, not better-dressed than some women, not someone who someone else finds more attractive than a woman, but someone who is superior to a woman who has been female from birth.

It's very hostile to be a woman in their company. So on the whole I'm not.

But it's very shocking to find there is yet another group of men, apart from the ones you already knew existed, who despise women.

Some drag definitely makes fun of and denigrates women. It's men saying "I'm a man in a dress, don't I look ridiculous." But IME a lot more is making fun of gender expectations, saying "I'm a man in a dress, don't I look fantastic." I agree it's very much down to the intention.

Drag queens are 'comedy' women. Parodies. (lily Savage)
Female impersonators are much more realistic women. (danny LaRue, Hinge & Bracket)
Men acting as women. Often due to lack of women to play the parts. (All boy schools)
Transvestites/ Cross-dressers. Need to express feminine side via clothing. Sometime sexual or fetish element, but very frequently not. (Eddie Izzard, David Shayler)

I can get a bit uncomfortable with some drag acts. They seem to be sarcastic/bitter in their comedy. Aggressive really.

But drag acts are very different from men playing women characters.

MP played all the main characters in their films I think (?) and therefore any proper female parts would have to be played by men.

All shakespeare characters were played by men originally I think - that wasn't drag either, it was acting.

I don't like Monty Python, none of it is funny.

Runs and hides

Okay then, who doesn't like the Pythons in drag, and why? Do they conform to the OP's assertion that ' in drag women are shown nagging, or domineering, or primping, or longing for male protection. Each form even has two insulting types....Drag presents the Glamor Girl and the Pantomime Dame, the first making fun of women for our sexuality and the second for our lack of it. '

What Super BOF said.

namechangeguy Can I make a suggestion? Read the thread.

A number of posters have specified the drag acts they find funny and those they find offensive.

I'm not saying we're right, but it would help as a reference point.

I likeTerry Jones in Life of Brian but some women don't.

Why not ask them why?

he's a very naughty boy!

Ah, had completely forgotten Monty Python. And I even forked out for Spamalot.

Here we have 'walk a mile in her shoes' which raises money and awareness for those affected by VAW/ shelters etc. It is an event for male participants, where, yes, they don high heeled court shoes and walk the length of the town. It's very well supported, and makes a lot of money for shelters.

There are quite a lot of men who go the whole hog and wear dresses and wigs and make-up. It's interesting, I suppose their efforts at 'drag' are indeed parody, and for comedic value... And yet they are only doing it to raise awareness of male violence against women (and cash). It's done in good spirit.

You're welcome AlistairSim.

Always loved your work

One of the characters in Alison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For cartoon enjoyed drag-kinging. Apparently it's an entertainment style that Lesbians sometimes enjoy (Wikipedia says so, so it must be true). Maybe because once you don't conform to gender expectations, the whole business just becomes funny. Or intriguing, or both.