Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

To the pp who said the Swedish sex laws would only push prostitution away from the streets- well isn't that a good thing

I agree actually. That was the strongest argument for criminalizing punters yet. But it all depends on where the women end up.

Ava you sound so resigned :(

I lived and worked in the red light district in Leicester in the 90's and saw a great deal of street prostitution - as well as being approached and kerb-crawled by men too many times to count, even though I wasnt a prostitute.

Ava,this was a long time ago, but what you've written rinds me of these girls. They were great girls, but tough cookies. Fiercely defensive of their 'choice' to go into prostitution, but hating it at the same time. I know you're not a street prostitute.

To the pp who said the Swedish sex laws would only push prostitution away from the streets- well isn't that a good thing. It's hardly going to increase the number of prostitutes, is it? But might decrease them. I'm sure I read somewhere that John's had decreased by 80% in Sweden within 5yrs of the law being passed. I'll try to find it.

We aren't talking about those issues. Thta just muddles things.
I certainly am in favour of selling organs and h iring out your womb (see my comments on the surrogate thread) and think it damage women that we prhoibit by law that right they have in other countries. I am very much aganist many of our censorship laws as are many mumsnetters. I do support an age of consent. I am certainly not saying we need no laws but I would prefer musmnetters to be lobbying for having many laws removed or changed rather than all the time asking for new ones with their views simply whipped up by popular frenzy like lambs to the slaughter by the popular press.

I am a free market libertarian. It is people's right to decide these things themselves. You don't ban something just because some people had bad experiences. I don't think there is any enthusiasm in the UK to change the law to make it illegal for men or women to pay for sex.

Fight it avaboos so we can prevent other women going through the same shit.

But there are sometimes things that happen to us that no one can prevent in the first place, from personal experience I don't believe fighting with your past is the right thing to do. It takes up far too much time and effort and doesn't help you move on.

I don't see how criminalising sex work puts an end to all ill's apparently suffered by those engaging in it.

Years ago I read the "child called it' trilogy and the part I found very profound is that he learns to accept that his abuser will never be able to answer the question 'why?"
perhaps you have to accept that the healing process from whatever it is that happened is going to be a long one and learning to live with it is perhaps the better option.

I believe that your life experiences shape you but they do not define you as we are still creatures of free will.
I suppose this is why we applaud those who have suffered and manage to turn things around rather than those who go and do exactly as was done to them.

I feel it's a product of society that people feel they have no - one to reach out to in many situations, and a result of human kinds perhaps innate selfishness to not always consider the feelings or needs of others.

Perhaps as a species we lack the ability to sort out the fundamental unjusts in the world, as of yet no one civilisation or heirarchy has been able to create fairness for all it's people.

frida, thanks for your reply. I think your input here is valuable too.

It does sound like you were let down massively by those that should have been most support.

I just find it hard to bear when people bang the happy hooker drum as being a) representative of the institution of prostitution, b) a justification for that institution/argument for its legalization.

I don't think any argument will be representative because it's not something that is openly discussed. But the 'happy hooker' does represent how it is for some, while others have really bad experiences.

I do have empathy, but I also recognise that plenty of people have been through traumatic experiences and stressful situations, how each of us feels at the time or how it shapes us is different from person to person.
May be as I've got older I just figure shit happens, you have to learn to live with it, what else can you do?

I left after six months. I went back to my mother, that lasted three weeks. I went on the housing register, I ended up in a hostel.
Surprisingly, that did not help my depression.
And it was I who was 'hectoring' because both my personal experience and my reading since have told me that abuse in your background make it easier to become a whore.
Don't you think that if there was someone I could have reached out to, then I would have done. I did try reaching out to my father, I got told I was stupid.
Or I could have tried the thirty year old who lived up the street from my father and was desperate to get into my pants.

Beachcomber. She was asking repeatedly and getting annoyed that no answer was forthcoming. Goes beyond simply asking imo.

But that was not what I needed. What I needed was someone to listen and help me deal with my depression.

Frida, do you think the criminalization of punters would have helped you in your situation ? Surely there are / were agencies / GPs who would have helped you deal with your depression ?

I can't believe one poster thought it was all right to hector you about whether you've suffered abuse or not.

I can believe that.

Although the poster wasn't 'hectoring'. She was asking.

It is a question lots of women in prostitution ask each other. I'm fairly sure, if you think about it, you will come up with some of the reasons why...

Fridakahlo . Hope you are ok and in a safe place now x

I was seventeen. I was living between two houses with parents in both houses makung my life hell.
I tried to kill myself the week before I went on the 'game'.
My father turned round and said 'that was stupid' in response to my suicide attack.
I was looking for jobs, not very hard admittedly. It is hard to focus on job hunting when one is in the midst of depression.
My step-mother brought home a copy of Girl About Town, so I could look for jobs. There was an advert for escorts.
I went for an interview, unsuprisingly I got accepted on the agencies books because the only qualification I needed was to look attractive and say yes to anyone who could pay. It got me out of home, away from my parents. It allowed me to support myself, to drown my pain in a river of drugs, alcohol and shopping.
But that was not what I needed. What I needed was someone to listen and help me deal with my depression.
Instead I got to have sex with men old enough to be my grandfather for money. A great deal of money, it is true, but it was not the money that I was in need of.

avaboosmummy if you choose to escape from poverty by selling your body, it is no business of mine - on an individual basis.

I just find it hard to bear when people bang the happy hooker drum as being a) representative of the institution of prostitution, b) a justification for that institution/argument for its legalization.

Those are the arguments I find hypocritical and toxic.

I'll admit to being a little uncomfortable at your lack of empathy/sympathy posted here for women who have exited prostitution, but I'm glad you have escaped poverty and I wish you every happiness.

avaboosmummy I think your contribution is really valuable here. I applaud you for sticking with it and being honest and frank. I can't believe one poster thought it was all right to hector you about whether you've suffered abuse or not.

Usually these type of threads aren't about debate, they're about promoting one view and shouting down any decent.

And that is ultimately because their position makes no logical sense at all.

Says who?

I am not victim blaming but emphasising the point about free will. If you have a choice to do something and then hate it, then you should stop as you say there are support organisations out there to help. But that doesn't then give the right to tell others who do not feel the same what to do.

Perhaps it is more a question of empowerment and feeling in control of your own destiny. If you don't feel empowed or are being forced into prostitution then it's not for you.

Beachcomber, you say the arguaments are hypercritical but that's because you want everyone else to see it just your way, when what we experience in life affects us all differently.

The argument about choice and poverty is relative to what you consider to be 'poverty' are we talking UK poverty or poverty across the globe? We do have the welfare state to fall back on, and apparently that does provide enough for a family to live in.

I personally have no interest in returning to in pressure sales jobs as they don't do much for my mental health. So if I choose to write a blog moaning about how crap it is working for an international blue chip I'd expect a load of sympathy rather than people asking me why I don't do something else?

Why can't we just live and let live? In an ideal world vulnerable people would be able to receive all the help they need, but where do you expect the money for this to come from?
Not only that but plenty what would be classed as 'vulnerable people' would perhaps not class themselves as such and are getting on with their lot in life.

If I choose to escape from poverty by selling my body what business is that of yours?

Or maybe I should be happy eating Tesco value range and buying my kid's second hand clothes.

and never the twain shall meet

The hypocrisy of the arguments on this thread is so blatant.

Those who argue about choice and independent women making loads of money, then argue that if these women weren't prostitutes, they would be in poverty.

So, not so much choice after all I guess?

Which is it? Powerful women with a plethora of choices who enjoy exercising their free will - or women escaping poverty?

Seems like many posters here want to have it both ways.

avaboosmummy, you above post reads as victim blaming to me.

Personally, I think these women bloggers are very brave. I don't find their honesty and courage boring or whingeing.

I'm not in the US. I'm in France where selling sexual services is not illegal. The law, support networks and services are very similar to the UK.

Beachcomber,
these blogs are about personal experiences. How we react to our exoerinces will always be different to the next persons.
I haven't read the full blogs but if they hated the situations they were in they should have stopped as it's obvious they didn't like it.
Not all pro's feel that way, and surely if you choose to allow things to happen to you simply for the money then that's your choice. No point in winging about it if at the time you are a willing participant.
I could write about how depressing it was to be a single parent on benefits, but after a while it would be a boring read and if it was truely affecting me to that degree I would be doing something to change it.
Why do women stay in abusive relationships? Are they stupid? Are they all uneducated and poverty stricken? Or is it the fact that as a species we are not infallible plus it is impossible to really know what the next person is feeling/thinking regardless of how close to them you may think you are.

"I think it is important to focus on the majority of women and to stop their abuse. If a small number of women really do choose it, then they can choose to do something else."

And who made you the self appointed keeper of these women? Oh that's right we aren't educated enough to make our own decisions. You kind of answer your own question and that is to do with personal choice. Just because the moral brigade do not like something there is no need to inflict that on those who are pursuing their own free will.

The main issue of law for prostitutes in the UK is that it prevents women working together, which could allow a greater level of safety if they were able to without breaking the law. The reason it is currently illegal is so that it still remains against the law to live of someone else's earnings, so it was designed to make the issue of pimping unlawful.

Beachcomber;
from your posts it sounds as though you are in the US, where prostitution is illegal in most states. Hence you end up with a situation where prostitutes have no protection from the law as they run the risk of being arrested themselves. Thank fully the UK law is different and there are successful prosecutions for those who think it's ok to abuse and scam on both sides of the equation.

Not to mention that prostitutes working in the UK have the ability to place warnings about problem punters, thus giving other girl's the opportunity to avoid them.
Yes being a prostitute isn't without it's risks, but as with everything in life you assess the risk and decide whether it's worth it.

In the UK drugs are illegal yet it doesn't stop people buying them, possibly in the case of cannabis although customs have done a great job to prevent it being imported we now have an explosion of UK growers to the extent I believe we are now exporting it!

We have drug support in the UK, it can be hard to access and the amount of funding needed to support all addicts simply isn't available in the public purse. Also take into account how many reformed addicts then relapse. You can't make someone give up drugs, they have to want to do it for themselves otherwise all money spent on their rehabilitation is wasted.

There are organisations in the UK that will support ex prostitutes, but again it's whether they want it.

I don't believe in the 2%/98% split. The main UK escort directory has plenty of independent escorts who don't fall into these groups.