For all those who have wondered why mansplaining is even a thing

scalzi

"the Scalzi post" Could you link to it? I do find it infuriating that men can only have their eyes opened by other men though, so I'm afraid that on reading it I'll think. - 'typical! one man says a crass, regurgitated version of what women have been discussing, naming, knowing for decades/eons and suddenly the ideas are works of genius.'

So hopefully Scalzi really is as amazing as you make out

OneMoreChap You've mentioned the Scalzi post a couple of times in this article as being the thing which opened your eyes to the concept of privilege, which is brilliant because I think that post is brilliant and want everyone to read it. Hurrah! Scalzi does great work there, really showing what a male ally to feminism can achieve by speaking to men (who are more likely to listen to men) about things men need to understand.

Super high-fives all round for the article and for mentioning it here - let's hope someone else finds it useful! [may be happily caffienated this morning, ahem]] AND one more thing: Scalzi is not mansplaining because he's not addressing women on the subject of women's issues and lives as if he knows better than them. He's addressing men on the subject of aspects of their lives to which it is easy to be (ignorantly or wilfully/defensively) blind.

I'm still trying to generate a definition of 'Mansplaining' that is catchy and accurate, but much as the definition of sexism as predjudice + power I suppose Mansplaining must be something along the lines of arrogance/assumed superior knowledge + expectation of being heard/believed. . .

Yeah, not catchy yet.

Actually, one of the worst is deciding they know the latest politically correct terminology for whatever, and telling you to use it (e.g. 'I think the accepted term now is 'dual heritage'). To you maybe, but I reserve the right to define myself as I see fit, so bog off.

Believing they know all about race issues because they went out with a black woman at University is another favourite.

One otherwise nice colleague explained to me and one or two others at length how all the colourful cotton prints people wear in Africa were actually made in Holland. When he'd finished one of them turned to me and said 'Is that true?' I just said 'No.' The context for this lecture was me raving about the beautiful fabrics I'd just bought on holiday in Ivory Coast.

It always make me laugh when men do this to me professionally. I say 'yes, I know' and get ignored, then 'yes, i know that' again and then just let them waste their breathe and time. When they have finished their superfluous explanation I just repeat 'You know, I did know all that' and smile icily until they look embarrassed. Which they often don't have the decency to do.

Pathetic.

MooncupGoddess
To be honest I think some posters' failure to grasp what you are saying reflects how deeply grounded these dynamics are in our culture.

... sounds familiar; or it could be that some of us aren't aware of the concepts. I didn't really understand the concept of privilege until I read Sclazi's post - which might be mansplaining itself, of course.

I've thought about some pretty cringy whitesplaining examples I've seen. Here's a couple:

Assuming someone doesn't have local knowledge because they are not white, even though they are born here. Then repeatedly making helpful 'suggestions' to this effect, even after nationality has been established.

Assuming someone is interested in sport, or jazz or hip-hop, or speaks patois just because they are African-descended, and trying to speak authoritatively to them about these things to prove culturedness.

Suggesting 'reverse-racism' is even a thing.

Oh there are loads....

I cannot remember who posted it or which page it was on, but the whitesplaining example I noticed on this thread was a white person going on about a traffic cop being rude to them on one occasion and comparing it to a black persons continual harrassment by the police.

Quite so kim. I never cease to be astonished by people's inability to judge the effects of their behaviour. Of course we all behave like twats sometimes, me very much included, but one should at least try to examine and modify one's unattractive conversational traits!

namechangeguy - do ask your wife if she has experience/a view of whitesplaining - it would be very interesting to hear what she thinks.

FoodUnit, you have explained these complex dynamics very well. To be honest I think some posters' failure to grasp what you are saying reflects how deeply grounded these dynamics are in our culture.

"I do consider it rude" So do I, but I wouldn't label someone as a 'rude person' if it isn't the totality of their behaviour.

Whitesplaining. - I cannot speak for people who have been whitesplained to, but I imagine the times I am most likely to lapse into it myself, would be in a group round-the-table discussion where I voice my opinion way more than everyone else, if I am the only white person in the room.

I often notice if I am at, say, a mothers' post-natal group having a big discussion and there's only one WoC in the room (particularly not native British), she will usually be quite quiet in the mix. I fear that there is a lot of whitesplaining going on at that time to make her feel uncomfortable about joining in.

Ways I think I am far less likely to do it, is to speak of my cultural norms as the norm, and the 'rightness' of these norms, or to act like my time in Africa qualifies me to speak about what life is like for the ordinary African living in the UK to an African living in the UK, particularly if it involved detached judgements about the challenges faced, etc.

I feel a bit weird saying this because I am in no position to make assumptions about how white people whitesplain

Frida, I cannot see any examples at all. I can see it mentioned in passing by Beachcomber, Sigmund, Onemorechap, Whatmeworry and Foodunit (amongst others) on pages 3, 4 and 6. I cannot see one example of what any of them mean by it. Hence my question.

Namechangeguy There were two or three examples of whitesplaining, if you read back through the thread.

"Am I the only woman that is surrounded by mansplaining men? "

sorry that should be the post of 11:14:29

Fair enough, thank you for the response.

I suppose where we differ is that I do consider it rude, and that therefore lead to my subsequent comments. We will have to agree to differ there.

While I understand the theoretical meaning of 'whitesplaining', I have no idea how it would work in practice. Could you expand how this might manifest itself? I will declare some personal interest here - my wife is black.

I quite liked the unintentional irony of foodunit's last post.

namechangeguy "Ouch! That is me told then. I was trying to have a friendly conversation, but if you want me to ignore your comments/questions, I will. I was asking questions, rather than explaining anything."

I don't want to hurt you, and though you did ask questions, there were a fair few assumptions underpinning it.

I'll illustrate how you could have said this in a non mansplainy way:

"FoodUnit, it seems like you are!" - this comment should be entirely cut out of your post.

"It must be rotten for you to be surrounded by such rude people." Fair enough you are trying to empathise, but at the same time you could say - "DO you really find it that widespread? How rotten if it is." By suggesting that I am exclusively surrounded by such 'rude people' diminishes the actual normalcy of the mansplain. The people I am surrounded by are all pretty normal from what I see, I wouldn't label them by their mansplaining as 'rude people' - just people who express male-entitlement - totally common in a patriarchy.

"Do you find that they are all of a certain age/generation?" Fair enough question- I would have been interested in answering this if I hadn't been peeved by the prior assumptions.

"As for your husband - how can anyone keep making the same mistake over and over?" This is an invitation to finger-point about my DH, when I see it as pretty normal that changing ones ingrained and unconscious behaviour is liable towards many lapses.

"How does he analyse his own behaviour when you pull him up on it? If my wife pulled me up on this I would do my damndest to change my ways. Does he think it is acceptable?" I sort of answered this before, but I still find this post angling to the assumption that there is something isolated about this behaviour that defines him as a freakish and uncommon sort of male.

"Does he only do it to women?" I'm sure I probably 'whitesplain' and so does he, so I think his 'privilege-splaining' lapses are probably not only done to women, but of course 'mansplaining' must be exclusively done to women, by its nature.

Ouch! That is me told then. I was trying to have a friendly conversation, but if you want me to ignore your comments/questions, I will. I was asking questions, rather than explaining anything.

No smugness, belittling or dominating was intended. Apologies if that is how you saw it. And good luck to your husband.

FoodUnit
I do know a few men that show the caution and sensitivity to have a truly two-way exchange of a conversation with women, but they are rare as hen's teeth.

As a man, taking your scant evidence from your interpretation of a few women and men's opinions on a MN thread, feels qualified to speak for those billions of women, each with their own lived reality, to answer my question.

namechangeguy
FoodUnit, it seems like you are!
Snippy? As no other replies seen.

It must be rotten for you to be surrounded by such rude people. Do you find that they are all of a certain age/generation?

Isn't this requesting exchange of information?

As for your husband - how can anyone keep making the same mistake over and over?

Rhetorical flourish?

How does he analyse his own behaviour when you pull him up on it?

Requesting exchange of information, to see if behaviour changes can take?

If my wife pulled me up on this I would do my damndest to change my ways.

Anecdotal aspiration, pretty information free.

Does he think it is acceptable? Does he only do it to women?

Requesting exchange of information?

You could, perhaps, say "He [and I] are monopolising the conversation." Is our presence stifling discussion?

To clarify this "I think it would be obvious that a man cannot possibly answer this question." further.

Look at it. I asked "Am I the only woman?" and in the world billions of women exist. As a man, taking your scant evidence from your interpretation of a few women and men's opinions on a MN thread, feels qualified to speak for those billions of women, each with their own lived reality, to answer my question.

Herein lies the mansplain, since it is:

a) Smug
b) Overestimating the value of your contribution/evidence
c) Belittling of me, a woman- suggesting the 'no it is just you' isolation tactic men use to undermine female confidence.
d) Dominating - since no women actually answered me and you summarised in advance.

Think about your impulse to answer this question namechangeguy and you will understand how easy it is to do it without realising, and you'll be less judgemental about my DH. Tend to your own shortcomings!

When I said "Am I the only woman that is surrounded by mansplaining men? " namechangeguy I think it would be obvious that a man cannot possibly answer this question.

Of course DH gets it and alters his behaviour. But old habits die hard.

FoodUnit, it seems like you are! It must be rotten for you to be surrounded by such rude people. Do you find that they are all of a certain age/generation?

As for your husband - how can anyone keep making the same mistake over and over? How does he analyse his own behaviour when you pull him up on it? If my wife pulled me up on this I would do my damndest to change my ways. Does he think it is acceptable? Does he only do it to women?