For all those who have wondered why mansplaining is even a thing

The teenage girl 'eww' look has always worked for me. It shames them into silence.

Actually changing the thought process that causes manspaining however? Well I'd approach it like any other cultural change that is being made. Problem is we live in a patriachy, so how do we get the resources to educate?

"So how do men stop mansplaining? That's a good question. How do you change behaviour when you don't know you're doing it and you don't understand what it is like to be on the receiving end?"

It seems only possible for women to influence men currently on a case by case basis using reason and focusing on truths to challenge the overarching patriarchal social structure which validates his male perspective.

My DH and I had a lot of intellectual wrestling at the beginning of our relationship, then he actually 'got' it. He only occasionally lapses. I've invested a lot into him in this way and I've said before that no woman can be expected to keep more than one man seeing this kind of sense in her life. It is massively time and energy consuming, frustrating and disheartening for her along the way. Women have lots more important and interesting things to be getting on with than teaching individual men not to mansplain.

I suppose it is about cultural change through raised awareness - which is a long term, resource-draining mission.

So in the meantime women should organise with only other women where possible and become adept at swiftly and mercilessly roasting any man who mansplains- so he learns to tread carefully in future.

What men can do, is be honest with themselves, to unflinchingly look at the misogyny they've absorbed, to admit the voice in their head that feels entitled, superior and impressive in relation to women. And to sometimes not speak and not share their opinion- to start with.

Maybe others have some tips too?

So, the answer was just like a man.

As I suspected.

I'll offer my perspective - if that's allowed.

People don't see how their behaviour affects others without it being pointed out to them. Men don't realise that they are "mansplaining" because they are just so used to it and they are rarely picked up on it by the person they are talking to.

Wives don't realise that they are being patronising and assuming the OH doesn't know what to do because men rarely say they understand that so there's no need to explain. They can get in a huff about it or not listen to what is being said. Then they either do it right or of course completely screw it up because they arrogantly assumed they knew it all when they didn't.

So how do men stop mansplaining? That's a good question. How do you change behaviour when you don't know you're doing it and you don't understand what it is like to be on the receiving end?

Foodunit "They usually sound like they sought out Mumsnet soully to find the forum most likely to afford mansplaining opportunity, then sat their entitled behinds down in FWR like a comfortable couch to mansplain until their hearts are content. What with them and the trolls it can make threads very tedious. "

Just thank you for that.

No one likes people explaining things to them on the assumption that they won't know because of who they are ( but I'm sure you already know that :) )

It does happen to fathers and husbands as well - an assumption that you won't know this because you're a man. Sometimes the husband does know, sometimes he doesn't but I've had loads of things "explained" to me or it's been assumed I won't know because I am a man.

But like I said before, many men are very guilty of it as well . Mind you - some women seem to assume they won't know or understand and need explaining to. I was in Currys and remember a women just saying to the shop assistant "You'll have to explain it to me, I'm just a blonde" :(

Throws roses adoringly at FoodUnit's feet

Ha ha. I think there are a couple of male-ego components to the mansplain:

1. A man assumining a woman to not be qualified to speak with authority to advise on a subject - eg- whether she is an industry specialist or even if she is the primary carer and is expert in looking after her children

And

2. Assuming himself to be qualified to advise on a subject to which he is not an authority eg- feminism and women's rights - a subject that literally is 'none of his business'.

In fact I think the only reason a man would post in FWR (apart from trolling to demoralise women) is to enjoy a bit of mansplaining. Why else do it? They may say they want to learn, but the tone is rarely that of someone seeking to be informed.

They usually sound like they sought out Mumsnet soully to find the forum most likely to afford mansplaining opportunity, then sat their entitled behinds down in FWR like a comfortable couch to mansplain until their hearts are content. What with them and the trolls it can make threads very tedious.

snurk<

Sorry FoodUnit but you're really making me laugh.

Don't you see, FoodUnit it's not that mansplaining is bad, or a problem, or exists - it's that you don't talk to your husband nicely enough!

SOLVED!

Thank heavens we have some men around here to explain it to us fix things.

"I wonder why your DH does what you say he does. Just a man, or the way you speak to him."

Complaining about the delivery is a good distraction from the content of the message.

"Oddly enough, not what DW does."

What isn't what your DW does? Behave like she has a male ego? I wonder why that would be?

Hmm. I suspect we're done.

... he bristles with annoyance...
... he hates being explained to...

Oddly enough, not what DW does.

I wonder why your DH does what you say he does.

Just a man, or the way you speak to him.

OneMoreChap "I chose a poor example, perhaps. I would not speak to DW the way you speak to your DH. But then, of course..."

What? You wouldn't say something along the lines of: "since you last took dc out, dc has a new habit of trying to stuff things in the wheels of the pushchair, please keep checking the blanket is tucked in." - that's the only example of the kind of way I might speak to DH.

Do you mean "would not speak to DW the way you speak your DH"
because 1) you do less childcare so you wouldn't have cause to say that sort of thing? 2) you are insinuating there is something inherently rude in explaining/requesting this of the other parent? 3) There is something inherently rude in the way I might ask this king of thing. Please clarify.

I chose a poor example, perhaps. I would not speak to DW the way you speak to your DH. But then, of course...

"I was wondering how it would sound if I said something about my wife - the way you spoke of your DH."

Its interesting that you gloss over the important difference between explaining something where somebody is getting on with their own thing, and explaining so that someone doesn't create unnecessary work for you.

The first case is unsolicited advice for something inconsequential, the second is important information in shared parenting that requires explanation: eg- "since you last took dc out, dc has a new habit of trying to stuff things in the wheels of the pushchair, please keep checking the blanket is tucked in."

OneMoreChapSun 02-Sep-12 13:28:52

"I was wondering how it would sound if I said something about my wife - the way you spoke of your DH."

Someone up thread described a similar situation where they explained how to use the sky +

the response was that she just wanted to learn how to do it herself.

as you apparently have not guessed, Food Unit, I don't explain to things to my wife like that.

FoodUnit Fri 31-Aug-12 17:19:04
I do explain things to DH and he does bristle with annoyance before I've even really started, saying "Yes I DO know", and then he does loads of things that shows he doesn't actually know, he just hates being explained to

I was wondering how it would sound if I said something about my wife - the way you spoke of your DH.

lastmango "WRT someone who has been routinely belittled every time she has opened her mouth - Of course there is some support in schools for children who need it."

But since this is very gendered (girls are more than twice as likely to be emotionally abused as boys), there needs to be more done to prevent the abuse. More needs to be done to change negative attitudes towards having female children.

"Perhaps, also, though, a reclaiming of "assertive" - and distinguishing it clearly from "noisy", "obtrusive" etc. - and associating it more with "efficient", "intelligent", "streamlined"
I agree with this, there also needs to be challenges to the ubiquitous stereotyping and relentless presentation of females as submissive/passive/there to be taken & used that wallpapers our world. More presentation of assertive females as 'normal' would mean women themselves and those observing/interacting with them are less likely to think she is 'getting ideas above her station' or 'stepping outside her box', etc when she is assertive, which leads to the slurs and fear of being labelled with them.

"I think it's also worth pointing out - perhaps in support groups? - that being 'assertive' and taking risks/knocks that go with it is very, very unlikely to be 'comfortable' experience."

Sure, in any arena it is tough for people with confidence systematically demolished to weather adversity and conflict in the aftermath of displays of assertion and still come out on top. (you have to have ego strength to not come across as 'defensive' or 'unlikeable' ie- you have to be/feel already valued) In a sense females as a class are continually having their confidence systematically demolished by stereotyping, abuse, exploitation, etc. This climate makes it tough for both trailblazers and followers in their wake.

We need to end the low status of women that male dominance depends upon. And that means both encouraging women as a class and restraining the class of men.

OneMoreChap "I explain things to my wife and she gets really shirty, and then she shows she really can't program the Sky+, she just won't listen..."

But does this create more work for you? Probably not, maybe she just wants to work it out herself. Both DH and I like to work stuff out for ourselves as a general rule. Interestingly though, my DH is brilliant at explaining tech and I imagine it is because he is an industry expert that it never come across as mansplainy.

FoodUnit Fri 31-Aug-12 17:19:04
...I do explain things to DH and he does bristle with annoyance before I've even really started, saying "Yes I DO know", and then he does loads of things that shows he doesn't actually know, he just hates being explained to...

"I explain things to my wife and she gets really shirty, and then she shows she really can't program the Sky+, she just won't listen..."

However (and please bear with me, FoodUnit, I am not some evil anti-feminist planted by MRA trolls), I think it's also worth pointing out - perhaps in support groups? - that being 'assertive' and taking risks/knocks that go with it is very, very unlikely to be 'comfortable' experience.

An anecdote: I managed to (finally) close a deal earlier this week. In doing this I armed a vile but not unusual buyer with what I am sure he perceives as a wealth of anecdotal ammunition about my bitchy, whinging, spoilt, hysterical, shrill, harsh - but probably very, very 'feminine' (or 'womanish' in it's most distasteful sense, to a misogynist, IYSWIM) character. And the string of emails between him and an associate which he kindly forwarded to me and several (male) colleagues show this very plainly indeed. And I had a few moments imagining (male) colleagues nodding and agreeing with him, and that did not feel pleasant. But at the end of the day, I what we wanted from the little fucker where none of my (male) colleagues had managed to. And that success overrides by a long way whatever pathetic snidey remarks about almost certainly were exchanged, and probably will continue to be.

FoodUnit - on sharing, group actions, awareness raising, etc. yy, yy and yy again!

WRT someone who has been routinely belittled every time she has opened her mouth - Of course there is some support in schools for children who need it. I wish there were more resources. I think the shortfall of resources in education is a massive problem in England. I know PHSE provides for this, there are some superb teachers, but they need to be better resourced.

blackcurrants - I agree also. In reality noone who isn't fairly high status and also very well liked/recognised as 'a bit of a joker' could get away with 'Moving on!' in the workplace. And I hear what you're saying WRT assertive women in the workplace and understand that in some environments that can be a massive problem (and, come to think of it, for me, if I hadn't had a few very, very impressive, intelligent, supportive and sharp-eyed women as senior colleagues then that fate would very likely have befallen me). In theory, of course, when this happens we could approach HR, claim discrimination, but in practice very, very few of us want to risk that route. So... back to group actions, etc?

Perhaps, also, though, a reclaiming of "assertive" - and distinguishing it clearly from "noisy", "obtrusive" etc. - and associating it more with "efficient", "intelligent", "steamlined" (and the status and rewards that those qualities should bring) might help free it from its (undeserved) association with traditionally 'masculine' qualities.

Hope that makes some sense.

Also, there is evidence that women are penalized at work (passed over for promotions, raises, being put in charge of big projects) for assertive behaviour because they are not seen as being 'team players'. The same behaviour in men (salary negotiations, asking for raises, taking the lead) is seen as excellent leadership behaviour, and rewarded financially.

So when women aren't assertive at work, they are acting in their own (personal, immediate) best interests. It's no good trailblazing away for the good of future generations if it gets you fired and you can't pay the mortgage.
And women have to walk this delicate line all the time. No wonder I feel so tired...

"But generally assertiveness increases the chances of success, which increases the chances of being congratulated, rewarded, etc. So it creates its own 'supportive environment', no?"

I would agree in many cases, but it is a bit much to say to someone who has been routinely belittled every time she has opened her mouth (as is not uncommon for girl children) to say - "Just be assertive - then it will all happen.... all the support you need will come to you". Because actually, thinking about it, she might also get jealous digs and bullying too for her successes and a lot of being labelled bitch and isolation along her way.

"I think the best way to create that environment is to be assertive. So that that becomes a norm rather than an exception, or something women feel they have to 'think twice' about. I don't think there's a better alternative. Can you suggest one?"

Well you're talking about a cultural change, and one of the methods is by individual women trailblazing and acting as role-models in the way you describe, but I think sharing and group actions can help, awareness raising, etc. So I wouldn't say there is just 'one' way to do it, and I certainly think it is a high risk strategy to put 'all your eggs in one basket'. I'd favour a multiplicity of approaches.

Methods like saying 'moving on' are good, but obviously not effective in all situations - you have to have a degree of power to get away with it.