Shaving and all of that - new lows

To put it another way: if nice, normal people in Jim Crow era Atlanta or apartheid South Africa made the choice not to befriend black people, we would all agree that their choices were (1) their own personal choices and (2) almost definitely influenced by the laws, habits, customs and taboos of their society.

We would also note that (3) their choices were probably racist.

We would further note that (4) the circumstances that produced these choices have radically changed as a result of social agitation and the resulting personal choices people make have also altered.

Saying "nope, nothing to see here worthy of feminist analysis, it's a personal choice!" is all phooey.

I don't understand all this "it's just personal choice!" stuff.

None of us make choices in a vacuum, do we? For example, where I live it's 32c and humid as all hell. I would like to walk around in my underwear (with a biiig sunhat) but I have made the personal choice to wear a light sundress. I would be more comfortable in my pants, but still made a choice. This choice was influenced and informed by the cultural taboo of people walking down naice suburban streets in their undies, my own sense of shame about my insufficiently sexxxay body and insufficiently sexxay undies, thinking I don't want our neighbours to see my bum, knowledge of the risks of skin exposure, etc etc etc. We all factor crap like that into our decisions without even noticing it.

In this instance women are making decisions about how their pubes should look (or whether they should have any at all) because they are concerned about being judged and scorned by others. We say "It's my choice!" but a lot of what drives choice is fear of negative outcomes. I think it's a crying shame that there's a fear of negative outcome related to having normal adult pubic hair.

If someone is afraid that a medical professional who is there to help her will think she is dirty and disgusting if she doesn't modify the appearance of her genitals in some way ... then yes I do find it sad and depressing, and I do think that it is a feminist issue.

In fairness though, I genuinely didn't know whether you should shave prior to birth

I think it's a fair question

habbibu I think for me it was the combination of lack of air con (my body had got used to ice cold temps for over 10 years), liking the heating on as I have poor circulation and a hormonal surge since having children. It is not hot here, I agree!
My DH showers daily but doesn't like to use a chemical deodorant regularly, so prefers just soap.

A friend of ours shaves his armpits/ pubes as he is a heavy sweater too and can't afford to have the regular Botox injections that prevent extreme sweating.

I think it is a very gendered issue. Its not like men agonise over whether to shave their balls before going for a testicular health examination or whether to have the 'back,crack & sack wax' before their prostate check.... because they might ... you know, be......judged by the medical staff.

Its depressing that some women are worried about what the people who are paid to tend to their health needs bleedin' well think of their looks/personal grooming.

Yes, people are always very quick to comment on women's appearance.

My DF always used to make comments on things that were none of his business and I used to reply "what's it to you?" and gradually having to justify silly comments made him stop.

It is like an extreme version of bad manners in which people don't seem to be corrected for pointing / staring / blurting out silly things.

Don't know where you live, greenhill, but I don't tend to get sweaty genitals as it's just not that bloody hot here. And mostly washing does just fine for armpits. As most men do.

It's not people shaving or not that bothers me, it's the EUWW- how gross for a woman not to shave that I don't like, the societal pressure.

I am a bit of a faint hearted feminist and have become more conformist in terms of hair removal. I never used to remove my armpit or leg hair in winter but since I don't sit in a fully air conditioned office any more, I get warmer and sweat more, so remove more of my pubes too. I also spend more time in a dressing gown looking at my own hairy legs, rather than having them encased in a trouser suit for work.

It doesn't mean that I've let the team down because I choose to tidy myself up for medical app'ts in which someone will be looking at my armpit, leg or genitals. I think it means they get a clearer look at what I am describing. It is besides the point that this is now part of mainstream porn, I don't look at that. My DH removes his pubes and armpit hair and does so to prevent sweating/ BO smells in body hair.

If you don't remove your body hair and sweat heavily, isn't this more of a slob statement than a political one?

If you go back through history pube shaving/not shaving/how shaved fashion changes continually, as does tattooing, wearing bling etc etc. In the renaissance shaving pubes was the norm till the French decided it was uncool, and fuzz came back in.

I don't think porn is the only cause today, the trend was already underway beforehand, as women wore less and less, and more and more ways of differentiating yourself came into vogue (eg rise of female tattooing - vajazzling is the obvious confluence)

IMO "do what you want" is the key here.

When I had baby number one I had a c section after being in labour a while. It was kind of planned but for a different time. Anyway, I was asked if I had shaved by the midwife. If I hadn't they would have done to be able to see to cut etc.

Glad I had attempted to do something because I really would hate them doing it to me. That part I understand, it would be awful to have the midwifes do it.

fab analysis Kritiq, thanks!

The midwife is likely to see a lot worse than pubic hair (not that I think pubic hair is bad, btw). Are people going to go back to having pre-delivery enemas too?

I find it depressing that women or girls should feel they need to alter their body for it to be socially acceptable to others. It's bad enough when this involves the "public" parts of the body (e.g. make up, hair style, clothing, heels, etc.), but when it involves parts of the body very few people ever see - the parts most closely connected with sex, sexuality and sexual identity, my heart sinks.

I distinctly remember a conversation with a friend where I used to live in Wales - it would have been at least 5 or 6 years ago. At the time, her daughter and son were 12 and 14. She said she'd picked up a "tip" from her mother about waiting until the last minute to go to the hospital in labour because the midwives and doctors would be rushing around too much to bother with the dreaded "pubic shave." When I was a nurse about 20 years ago, having to have a full shave before birth or a gynae procedure was seen as an outmoded tradition, already being abandoned by the more progressive surgeons and detested by patients.

Now, women now fret about whether their pubic regions will upset/shock/repulse health care staff?

It bothers me not only that women should feel that their bodies in a "natural state" will upset, shock or repulse anyone. It bothers me especially how this has come to be and it is most definitely connected to changes in the way women have been depicted in pornography over the past 20 years.

Shaving and waxing of genitals for women in porn, was introduced to make it easier for the camera to film and the viewer to "see" what was happening more clearly. Men who viewed porn associated hairless pudenda with sexual pleasure while masturbating. Some no doubt asked partners to try it, maybe got them to view porn with them to see how "normal" it was. Some salons started offering waxing, seeing a new "market" emerging. What started out as niche became "mainstream" within a very short time, with women and girls spending alot more time and money on shaving, waxing and other forms of hair removal. It's also created another way women can feel insecure about their appearance and identity. More recently, some of the health risks of health removal have emerged, but I doubt this will make a difference.

I agree with OP. It's only reading on here about shaving before smear test/childbirth that has had me a bit worried about what the health professionals might think of me not bothering .

I agree with the OP that it is particularly sad when someone is concerned about their medically trained midwife "having" to see their pubic hair when they are about to engage in a marvel of biology. The only thing that stops me despairing, is that I think it is natural to be a bit overwhelmed by the idea of giving birth and to look to trivialities to distract you. Hair removal is, unfortunately, a detail it is easy for women to get hung up on. But I think in the case of concern for the midwife it is mainly about looking for a distraction and so applying the pressure to oneself rather than having it applied by society*.

*Disclaimer: I haven't read the other thread so may be horrified to see other MNers are actually applying social pressure to do this.

The sad thing to me is that it isn't so long ago that it was considered a feminist issue that hospitals would insist on shaving off women's pubic hair when they came in to give birth even if a 'normal' delivery was expected.

I certainly remember it being discussed when I was pregnant with DD 11 years ago (disclaimer - I was in Spain so it is possible that the UK had given up the practice by then).

Not quite sure how we got from outrage at our pubes being forcibly removed to an expectation that we should do it ourselves to look neat and tidy

Back in the day it was the norm though, wasn't it? Midwives used to shave women giving birth because it was thought it reduced infection. Perhaps it is a hangover from that?

The woman on the thread you're taking about is just asking. It doesn't make her 'sad' or less of a woman. Actually, being a feminist means doing what you want, even if that means you do something others may consider shallow or 'sad'. It's their choice. What I do think is disappointing is other women judging her for asking the question - it's perfectly reasonable she is asking this. To her it obviously matters and that is ok.

And for people who don't care about the state of their pubes, they sure have a lot to say about other peoples.

OK, am I the only one wondering how an extremely pregnant woman could shave there?

It is a depressing new low and have said so on said thread.

rosabud yes! It really bothers me especially when I am in bed (naked). Maybe mine is particularly erm...full and healthy?

It's not for a man though, don't worry about it

"And surely you don't need to waste your time worrying about someone else's pubic hair and what they chosse to do with it."

The sad thing is that the woman here is worrying what her midwife would think about her pubic hair, and getting rid of it for that reason.

I'd really love to not give a fuck about this crap but there is a pressure to shave for the fear of how others may react - partner, strangers on beach etc