Just feeling really angry at all the murder, assault, rape of females that goes on

I think meow communicated what he thinks perfectly effectively.

He is more interested in insisting that men compete for (passive?) women and do so through violence, than he is in anything else.

This thread didn't start out by looking at finding excuses for male violence, or for suggesting that there's a sexual dynamic in which violence plays a part - but now it's like listening to someone with a fetish, who wants to talk about it over and over. Each time someone tries to get the conversation away from linking violence with male sexual dominance competitions, we're right back there.

And as plenty said so well, it's pretty impossible to claim that a scenario in which women are passive objects in someone else's sex life, is not woman-hating.

what hymalaya said, she puts it very well
messy, dont talk shite meows theory of women chosing viloent males
who is that then, some other meow?,because it certainly isnt waht i said. why dont you bother to read the thread?

I'm a speed reader. Even I couldn't read every single post on MN.

HQ do not read every single post, unless their attention is drawn to it

No matter how many times you refute that, PM, it doesn't make you right

Thanks, Himalaya, yes, that's kind of what I was thinking towards also. Meow's theory that women chose the more violent males is at odds with the reality (IMO) where women have chosen non-violent beta males facilitated by the existence of hidden ovulation. So the truth is that female infidelity (and the urge to up one's chances of conception by being promiscuous) could actually be responsible for the happy fact that violence is not the norm amongst men.

Unfortunately, as someone said upthread violence amongst men is pro-social and is encouraged.

"and allows human females to have an evolutionary strategy where one man provides resources to help raise a child, where another has provided the genetic resources."

Did one man provide resources for another child though? I understand that many pre-materialistic communal societies tended to provide resources for the whole and that for a long time humans weren't aware of the importance of paternity. Hence the idolisation of women as live-giving goddesses just whipping those babies out by magic, (Ahhh ... those good old days )

Sorry this is a complete tangent - I will shut up now! It's just when you get me chatting about evolution I just can't stop...

"Also, meow, just out of interest, if in the course of evolution, women chose only violent alpha males, then why are the majority of men clearly non violent beta males?"

Can I answer that one?

In general, characteristics can have an evolutionary advantage, without everyone ending up with the same characteristic, to the same extent. Humans live(d) in a wide variety of different environments and adapt to lots of situations so we are very variable, compared to species that evolved in one specific ecological niche.

So for example the gene for sickle cell disease carries some advantage (against malaria) to people who only carry one copy. But not everyone is a carrier. Being able to see in colour is an evolutionary advantage, but some people are colour blind (which may confer a different advantage in terms of motion vision) Being strong, smart, beautiful/symmetrical and resilient were likely all evolutionary advantages but everyone exhibits these characteristics to a different extent, and in different combinations.

Similarly with male strength and aggression. As someone mentioned upthread while alpha males are busy fighting it out, other males have other strategies.

Someone upthread said that female mate choice can have had no significant impact on male evolution because of arranged marriage, rape etc... In evolutionary terms choosing the mate your parents choose for you is still mate selection.

Also infidelity is as old as the hills. Women may not have always chosen who their official partner was, but often they did not only have
children with him. Hidden ovulation is a weird And important thing about human reproduction - it is an evolutionary strategy that promotes female mate choice, and allows human females to have an evolutionary strategy where one man provides resources to help raise a child, where another has provided the genetic resources.

Morning Olivia!

Plenty, thank you for that excellent post and to Messy for enlarging on it.

seems every post is read...ty and every thread i read in this bit turns into a bunfight

it's Any Fucker to you, or AF

where are your manners ?

and you are wrong

HQ do not read every post, there are far too many in a day for the small staff that they have

their attention is brought to posts that are reported, or of course if their antennae are already twitching about a thread that has already turned into a bit of a bunfight

it might be best to get your facts straight, before engaging your keyboard

meant already read my message at 00.04, no need to say what i think to them

Yeah, that's exactly how it works, porn, that's why every post I report goes and this thread has about twenty posts of sane discussion and nothing else.

Oh, wait ...

Hey Fucker, large number of censored threads here, posts is read by admin very quickly, clearly no need to report to organ grinders as they already read message

I think plenty has articulated what I hate so much about meow's theory of sexual selection.

Meow's theory conjures up images of men lining up, puffing out their chests and showing off their strength desperate to be chosen by a powerful female, whereas the reality is that in the past such men were more likely to use that strength to overpower women and take away their choice and reduce them to objects, in the ways that plenty described in her post.

Also, meow, just out of interest, if in the course of evolution, women chose only violent alpha males, then why are the majority of men clearly non violent beta males?

better still, start your own site to slag off Mumsnet

oh, somebody already did that...too late, how unfortunate

It is pro-social for men to be violent in our culture. That is not the same as it being natural.

Otherwise, there wouldn't be such cultures as these

and if you don't like it, there are plenty other parenting websites you can use, no ?

tell it to the organ grinders, PM

i don't know, even with that post deleted i wa still able to follow the thread and get the measure of good old meow

was replyin to changlingz post at 23.46, better to warn than censor, stops every other thread just gettin nasty

If you want to lay down the law, see if MNHQ will let you work for them (god I hope not). Otherwise, let them do what they do, eh?

admins or moderaters, has to be last resort not first resort, too many threads become even more confusing to follow with missing posts that other posts comment on