Just feeling really angry at all the murder, assault, rape of females that goes on

I am so glad to see that post has been deleted.

Round of applause for MNHQ.

I have heard some pretty silly statements on MN but none quite as silly as 'men compete for women through violence'. I don't know any violent men and I don't know any women who wouldn't be utterly disgusted and walk away.

Never read that,but sounds like it is worth a read.
Trouble is, the women I was talking about,are in danger,courtesy of the areas in which they live.
I have tried pointing out that other areas are not necessarily like this,but due to them having lived all there short lives not moving very far,that is all they know,and sadly all they expect.

Didn't Germaine Greer write a chapter in "The Whole Woman" about fear and the way in which it is manipulated in order to keep women afraid and in need of the protection of other men?

I remember watching a Tribal Wives episode about a nomadic polygamous family (in Turkey I think). The women worked constantly to serve the men's needs as well as that of their families. They kept the whole shebang going. When the western visitor questioned what the men did in return, the head replied "we give them our protection". I always thought that was a con, because the women did far more to "protect" the family than the men did. By exaggerating the presence of "stranger danger" those men had gotten themselves a cushty deal.

whatme - I don't think that's so. I know a lot of scientists who don't think it stands up. But I don't want to get into this because I also think many people who do believe in evo psych would not use it to blame women for male violence.

I don't know what drives male violence. I just know it has to stop, and it's not women's fault.

Women are not attracted to violent men out of the blue. Women who end up with violent men are almost invariably those who've grown up with violence. That is not 'natural', that is something they need help with. It's well known that this is a pattern, and also that women can escape this pattern.

The natural human response to violence is not attraction. To claim it is, is sick and twisted.

I have to say that I do know of vulnerable young women,who are "attracted" if that is the right word,to the more violent men.They live in areas where the law is more in the hands of the people living there,rather than the police. They see these more violent men as better able to protect them.Have know idea how they end up loving them,it has got something to do with them feeling "protected",as in being loved and looked after.

I have 2 sons.

During their teenage years they were mugged, robbed, attacked, beaten up, more times than I can recall.

They never once went out looking for trouble. They are pleasant, well brought up young men.

This type of thing never makes the headlines though because it is considered normal.

[sad

Evolutionary theory is fine - some of it. What is not fine is evolutionary psychology, which is not generally accepted, and certainly hasn't been for 200 years. I do not believe anyone with a scientific knowledge would agree that men compete for women through violence

Actually most people with scientific training do believe it, with the caveats I noted upthread..

But, if you don't believe mate selection drives male on male violence LRD, what do you believe drives it?

You.

who did you say was being offensive?

meow, that is not a fact. Evidence for it? I think you're talking rubbish.

whatme I think it is both wrong and offensive.

Evolutionary theory is fine - some of it. What is not fine is evolutionary psychology, which is not generally accepted, and certainly hasn't been for 200 years. I do not believe anyone with a scientific knowledge would agree that men compete for women through violence.

meow, If you have evidence, provide it. If you don't, admit you are lying in a way that is offensive to women, and shut up.

I do not see how you could make that statement and not see it was offensive

It doesn't make it wrong though.

I read what you said, and it is rubbish to say men compete for women through violence. That view is offensive to both men and women, and only someone with a serious problem could imagine it's true

Actually LRD, anyone with a smidgin of scientific knowledge by and large will agree with it.

I do note that Evolutionary theory still offends more people than any other science, even after 200 odd years of being accepted :)

I read what you said, and it is rubbish to say men compete for women through violence. That view is offensive to both men and women, and only someone with a serious problem could imagine it's true.

human being are a species where the males compete for the females , thats a fact.

no i dont think women are excited by two men having a bar brawl either.

your making a link between violent men, attractiveness and DV......i'm not.

Women who end up with violent men need help. The children of violent men need help so they don't grow up into violent people.
well of course, i wonder who your argueing with, because on most of your points it sure as heel isnt me!

I do not see how you could make that statement and not see it was offensive.

I read what you said, and it is rubbish to say men compete for women through violence. That view is offensive to both men and women, and only someone with a serious problem could imagine it's true.

If I, or most women, see two men having a fight outside a pub, I am scared. And I want to keep away. I do not think 'phwoar, my species-determined similarities to a roe deer make me find this powerfully sexy'.

Yes, I'm sure at times there are women who end up in relationships with violent men. To suggest those women are 'naturally' attracted to violent men, or that these men become violent as a 'natural' means of attracting a woman, is disgusting.

Women who end up with violent men need help. The children of violent men need help so they don't grow up into violent people.

It is not excusable or 'natural' at all.

well, of course, i diddnt say they ONLY compete through violence.

anyway, diddnt mean to offend you, i'm sorry.

Of course you offended me - you offended me because what you said is offensive.

In our society, it is ridiculous to pretend men 'compete' for women through violence. This hasn't been the case, except in artificial and tenuous forms, for at least two thousand years.

You might as well suggest that because all animals walk on four legs, men who crawl are immensely attractive to us because after all, male animals on four legs are well sexy to other female animals.

I've met quite a few violent people

I'd bet there is an 80/20 going on, ie 80% of the violence is caused by a small minority (20%) of repeat offenders.

My police friend told also me that a small number of people in any town commit most of the crimes and most of the violence, the police know who most of them are, but its very hard to lock people up in the UK and keep them there for minor offences.

this=think

yes i this the 'i belive you' campaign is brilliant.
males competing or females doesnt make men violent towards women but towards other men.
thats why i describe it as 'other', maybe you read that in a way it wasnt intended, sorry if it offended you. you dont have to convince me that DV is an enormous problem BTW and i am by no means blaming victims.

in allmost every species where males compete for females there is violence between the males as they compete, thats just nature, not saying it's right .

No matter how you dress it up, you said 'i'm sorry but the way women chose men encourages male violence

I'm not sure the females got a lot of a "selecting" option in that game.

I'd express it more that alpha males get to select more/better females, so that means the males will fight to determine dominance over other males. All species do it, not just humans.

And if the animal kingdom is anything to go by, the females being fought over quite often sneak into the bushes for a quickie with yet another sneaky male :)

Of course humans have developed more than animals so young men also use wit, art, music, wealth, brains, personality etc to compete, but violence is still an often used option - especially among young men who have no other skills.

What it does mean is that young males trying to establish their status are fairly dangerous to other (mainly young) males. This is also the dynamic that makes places with large numbers of unemployed young men so volatile (best predictior of revolt = % of young unemployed males.)

Yeah, I've met quite a few violent people too, worked in a prison many years ago. Some changed, some didn't. What a surprise. But I still do not know any man in my family life, social life or working life who is violent, sorry if that annoys some.

That's true. I think it becomes a pattern.

I've met quite a few violent people.

They're not going to change, they like violence.
It's a way of life to them.

You did blame women.

"i'm sorry but the way women chose men encourages male violence."

Men can take ownership of their own violence.