Women only playbarn

Sorry, firwala, that sounded a bit abrupt! Not at you but at the idea that a man would feel entitled to tell a woman that she is being inappropriate? Maybe this has happened in this particular nursery in which case it definitely is a good idea to keep those men out so the women are free to climb without fear of being told off.

It's just the other non-judgemental men that I feel for.

Am I the only one that feels at firwala's post?

None of the soft play round our way is supervised in the sense of employees being there to help children climb. I think I should move!

Perhaps we are spoiled here, as I said, mostly these places have staff to supervise. You just hand your adventurous toddler over and go and sit down!

firawla, I am at work so would like to respond fully to your post later as some of the things you say are very worrying.

alexpolismum, a lot of parents of both sexes do end up climbing on the frame IME, yes. Generally, they are parents of advenurous toddlers who aren't prepared to stick to the ball pit or Little Tikes toys and want to be up and climbing. In DDs case, her legs aren't long enough for her to cover some of the gaps between steps, so DH or I get the job of assisting her to the top. It's good exercise actually, although, being on the larger side, squeezing between some of the rollers can be challenging!

Where I live, they are nearly all supervised (by paid employees, I mean). I've only actually been to one that wasn't supervised, but even there I never climbed up, nor did I see anyone else doing so. Perhaps people round here are more relaxed about it? Perhaps we are all negligent? I don't know. Anyway, all the parents watched from the bottom and just called out when necessary, even with very young children.

if you have younger kids then you have to climb up to supervise?? i used to climb up when my oldest one was a bit younger, now he is 4 so i send him in by himself and send the 2 year old in with him but when my oldest was like 2.5 or under 2 than had to go in and supervise them? i have seen loads of people going in with their kids sure its not just me!

Can I just ask if all the mums are really climbing on the play equipment?? It seems really odd to me. I have never climbed on the children's play equipment in a playbarn/ softplay place. In the supervised ones, I just send them in and go and sit down to have a drink. In the non-supervised ones, I just wait at the bottom. Why would you need to climb up???

Half the population has an IQ of 99 or lower: that's how it's calculated. Accusing someone of having a double digit IQ should not be an insult unless you are a hopeless misanthropist.

Offensive much Helxi so people are halfwits is they read the tabloid press and can only remember the name of Huntley? I think what is stupid is your take on the "normal" person. Do you have an above average IQ? I'm guessing not so please do not question the IQ of other people.

mummypig i think mainly due to clothing and religious covering requirements, for eg if you wear abayah or jilbab (the feet length baggy dresses that go over the clothes) it can be hard to climb up on the play equipment unless you pull your abayah up a bit and shows the clothes underneath which some women are not okay with. im not saying its impossible to climb around like that, i used to climb round in mixed soft play even when i wore it with full niqaab (i dont wear it at all any more anyway, only hijab & clothes) but some women just wouldn't. tbh if it was busy and there was a lot of men around then i probably wouldn't have - especially if its men from within our own community, if its some random non muslim dad then i know they wont give a 2nd thought about what we are are doing climbing up and show a bit of your jeans from under your abayah or whatever else it would be total non issue really but infront of very religious or strict men its just uncomfy. a lot of people are in the mindset that we dont even look at each other at all(i mean between men and women), a lot of the time dont even make eye contact or say a single word if you see your friends husband or something like that. so its just awkward being in a mixed area with things like this
not all muslim men & women are like this but it depends on the community and the people.

so having womens only things makes it easier for the women cos then we can feel more comfortable but i do think there needs to be a balance cos when too many things are womens only it means that the mums get stuck with all the kids and cant do things together as a family, so sometimes i do get a bit peed off with it myself if it was something on weekends then normally i dont go as i rather have a chance for their dad to spend time with the kids too but in general womens only environments are positive for us

i think the difference between soft play and playgroup/library is probably the more physical aspect. i can think of quite a few men (and women actually) who would argue its immodest for women to climb up in the playframe infront of men as they will expose the legs from under the abayah, might show their shape etc etc, its "not suitable" - i dont think its that big of a deal myself, i would climb up there but it is hard for some people to do these things if people are looking at you and judging or saying haraam, inappropriate etc. i also do know men that wont let their wives even go out to the garden for kids to play incase neighbours see her out their window, even tho she is fully covered. so maybe segregated play centres atleast gives those women a chance to go where the husband would have otherwise not "permitted" it - not that its ideal situation the amount of control those husbands have in their marriages anyway, but if that is the case then these kind of things are a short term improvement as you wont totally change mindsets over night

Also swimming pools have women only sessions. Our church has a men only group that meets. It's not that unusual.

What is unusual in this case is that they have banned males outright.

The are already lots of women only and men only groups all over the UK, astronaut.

I really don't get it. What happens in other places you take your kids? Are there going to be women only sessions at the library? At playgroup?

You don't have to talk to anyone at play centres, or even make eye contact if you don't want to. It just gives some men more ammunition to ridicule feminism and women's rights.

MummyPigsFatTummy Don't worry! I am always having my rants blown out of the water! I also lean towards segregated schooling for girls but have a problem with the principle.

I think that one of the general problems is that whilst integration is excellent in theory, study and experience show that girls and women often suffer in an integrated environment because men/boys tend to dominate the conversation/agenda. That sounds very harsh against the male sex and I don't think it's necessarily intentional but some examples that come up in a mixed environment are:

• the topics that come up for general discussion relate to men (men are more prevalent in pop culture. Female topics are generally considered either icky or not interesting)
• women/girls are overly aware of the male gaze (culture's obsession with female appearance and the knowledge/presumption/experience that men judge us for our looks)
• women/girls don't speak up as much as they would in single sex environments (socialization instills a fear of being seen as pushy and opinionated.)
• women/girls don't take the lead (for same reasons & we are often taught that men are natural leaders)
• girls' interests are devalued - ("don't be a girl" is a common insult heard at school and of all the movies that DS has seen at school only one has had a female protagonist - boys simply are not expected to be interested in "girl" stuff. Fashion is frivolous. Football is cool.)

I think these are issues that mean single sex schooling is better for girls. Obviously the ideal is that these problems will be eradicated and that women will be integrated into the mainstream (as well as men welcomed into womenstuff), but until they are, it seems a tad unfair to force women to integrate and feel uncomfortable, and I suppose the nursery incident is a mild example of that.

Like I said, I'm divided on the issue!

I wonder how far The Equal Opportunities Commission will go on this or will they just let it die a death and hope the problem will blow over,my DH used to take our DCs to play group when they where small along with other dads who helped with childcare when we where working opposite shifts the country has gone soft on this I think and are to frightened to upset people.

Oh dear, Messy - you are right. That blows my little rant out of the water, because I went to a single sex school and will probably send my daughter to one, and I think they are a good thing. So who am I to decide when and in what circumstances women/girls should mix with men or not? Segregation only irritates me when it relates to things I don't think should be segregated. Hypocrite, much?

Also, I actually don't like the idea of banning anything, not even women-only soft play. People should be free to do and go what and where they they like. I just wish that socially, segregation wasn't necessary because I think eventually it leads to discrimination against women, despite perhaps in the short term seeming to be in their best interests. I think this probably does apply to segregated shcools too. Girls do better at them because they hang back in the presence of boys (simplistically) but possibly failing to mix with boys as children makes them less confident in dealing with them throughout their lives? And maybe, for boys, they would treat girls and women better if they mixed with them on a day to day level as children and realised they are just human beings too. But, there again, plenty of schools are mixed - does it work like that? I am not sure. There are just too many other influences on both sexes I suppose.

Anyway, I will shut up now but watch this thread with interest.

Firwala..there are other well known soft play areas in Birmingham, but for someone living in that particular area, it can be very costly to get to the other play areas if they don't have their own transport. Its very unfair for dads/men/uncles... to have to go elsewhere when they might have one nearby.

What if you're a woman on her own for some reason, with no other family or friends who can act as babysitters, with a son over the age of 9. What do you do with him while you're at the play centre with you're other kids and he is not even allowed inside?

Why is there no age restriction on girls?

What about single sex schools? Despite the fact that girls do better in them, should they be banned? Genuine question btw. I am on fence.

But, firawla why not? I'm sorry but I really just don't get why women don't feel comfortable with men around in an everyday situation like soft play. We share this planet - we have to learn to co-exist in these sorts of places or we are going to end up in a sitaution where men and women do everything separately. I am sure there are plenty of mixed soft play options in Birmingham but in those families where women don't feel comfortable with men around, the women are going to head for the women-only one and become gradually more segregated, as will their daughters and sons and so on, and that is the worst part I think. What would be nice would be for children to grow up with fewer hang ups about not being able to be in the same places, not more.

Also, I think you see what you look for, a lot of the time. When I have been to soft play both the men and the women have largely been too concerned with clambering after their own toddlers to spend much time ogling each other or even noticing each other apart from to say excuse me when they pass (or to separate two bickering children after the same piece of equipment). It is inherently self-obsessed and, frankly, a bit arrogant to assume that the men around you are interested or have even noticed you. And if they have, so what, unless they hassle you which would, of course, be wildly inappropriate in any situation?

But there again, segregation really irritates me - clearly it doesn't everyone.

"some women are saying they dont feel comfy climbing up in the play frame with their kids and that kind of thing, with men around.."

It's all relative isn't it? I mean I read that and I think "what's the problem?" but then I shudder at the thought of an internal exam by a male doctor.

I don't know the answer

just to say, the people mentioning about dads are barred and so cant take their children to soft play, there are loads of softplay things in birmingham so not that this one was their only option??

its not quite the same as gym where youre uncovered etc but some women are saying they dont feel comfy climbing up in the play frame with their kids and that kind of thing, with men around.. so its a similar thing but to lesser extent

but i agree with whoever said mon-fri womens only and some mixed sessions on weekends could have been a good comprimise

God, this is my worst nightmare. A blanket excuse for men to avoid the hell that is soft play. Why couldn't they have made it men only????

Seriously though, I don't like it. I hate the whole idea of enforced segregation and, whilst I realise this is a private busines and, if it doesn't breach equalities legislation for whatever reason, can do what it likes, its existence makes me uncomfortable. As a country, we should be trying to encourage people of all cultures and religions to move away from outdated ideas about segregation of the sexes and this sort of thing doesn't help.

To be honest, I don't much like women-only gyms and swimming sessions for the same reasons, but I do realise that if they didn't exist, for some women the wobbly bits they don't want to display would just get wobblier and wobblier. I don't think the same applies in soft play though (not in my experience anyway).

nailak, the issue is that this particular soft play centre has no sessions where dads or boys over the age of 9 are allowed.

Fathers who might want to take their children to a soft play centre and do activities with them are barred completely. It's actively discouraging fathers from doing this kind of activity with their kids.

Someone up thread said that a lot of people think it's okay because it's mostly mums are looking after kids while dads in work - if this place had made womens only sessions on most of Mon-Fri, but allowed fathers in with their kids at weekends, then the soft play centre probably wouldn't have even made the news in the first place.

"so there is a correct way for people to feel now? and it is ok to invalidate the feelings of someone who doesnt agree with you."

Hold up Nailik! A tad dramatic don't you think? Everything I express in my posts is a huge IMO and I haven't sought to invalidate anyone's feelings. In fact if you read my last post to Eclectic you'll see that I'm striving to accommodate views that I don't necessarily hold myself.

I understand the concepts behind segregation of the sexes in public places. It's just I don't believe (IMO IMO IMO) that it's the right way to go. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, just that I don't agree with it because in this instance it's unfair to men & older boys and denies them access to something they might benefit from.

I don't believe that the women involved are casting men as sexual predators as one poster hyperbolically suggested and I understand that they just want to feel comfortable. I also understand what it's like to be denied access to social stuff on the basis of your gender. However innocuous the given reason is it still doesn't feel nice. Now I don't know if there are any men who have effectively been excluded by this law (maybe it is just usual media anti-multiculturalist spin) but if they do exist and they are just nice dads just wanting to take their kids out, then my sympathy is with them. I mean have any dads complained about this? I don't know. Also what about the mums with older children? Not enough is known about this particular situation.

On a wider note, you last paragraph seems to imply that you believe in dads only spaces, is that correct? Maybe a good idea is to have both. Dads only, mums only and then mixed. That way everyone's happy and men and women can enjoy mixing together.