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Original poster

Actually, we're not really worth it.

82 replies

Triffiddealer · 03/08/2012 00:20

Listening to Women's Hour today (yes, get full marks for feminist bingo), I was intrigued by the chat regarding women in IT - which then evolved to women applying for jobs in general. Basic conclusions:

If women do not feel they meet 90% of job spec, they won't apply for the job - many men will apply if they only meet 40 - 50%

If you advertise a job at 50K per year, women don't apply. If you lower the salary, they will.

Now, I appreciate this was based on the views of the participants of Women's Hour and not a statistically valid survey - but the comments resonate with me.

Assuming this is the case (women are less confident in their abilities and less able to demand the appropriate salary than men), what do we actually do about it?

OP posts:
joanofarchitrave · 03/08/2012 00:47

'women have evolved to be less secure than men'

Well, I'll have to read that, because my first reaction is to say WHAT COMPLETE BULLSHIT but I am not secure enough to stand by that unsupported opinion Grin

I suppose I feel that the problem is that men are too secure, not that women are too insecure.

Original poster
Triffiddealer · 03/08/2012 00:44

Thanks Enim. I'll read that tomorrow.

I have been reading a book by Steve Peters (a psychiatrist) called the Chimp Paradox and his take is that women have evolved to be less secure than men and that this self-doubt is something he has seen consistently in his professional career with women, regardless of their intelligence or talent. His view is that we need to accept and deal with the evolutionary fact that many women lack confidence, and overcome it, by not letting it dictate our lives.

I recognise this lack of confidence in my own life (but am not entirely convinced it isn't culturally/socially built). However, I still don't know how I overcome it - or make sure my daughter doesn't fall victim to it.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 03/08/2012 00:36

Ah I see, so that study is basically the study I was after - apart from the crucial part of how an employer or potential employer would react when faced with someone following the opposite gender role.

BertieBotts · 03/08/2012 00:33

I read somewhere (I think it was on here ages ago actually...) that one of the reasons women tend to be paid less than men is that when applying for a job when women are told the salary they are to be paid, they accept it, where as men are more likely to haggle and say no, I'm worth more than that.

I think this was a bit of a woman blaming reason Hmm but interesting to look at why this behaviour occurs, if it's true? I know I'd be terrified to haggle a salary up in case they thought it was cheeky and decided not to offer me the job! And on a related point, when I was applying for (minimum wage retail) jobs last year, DP was shocked when I said an interview had only lasted 15 minutes and was convinced I hadn't got the job, because I should have asked them questions, should have asked for a tour of the building etc (as he apparently has done in every interview he's ever had) and again, it would never occur to me to do this and I don't think I'd have the nerve in case they thought me, well, I suppose, cheeky or arrogant.

I wonder if this is a "way different genders are viewed" thing as well? Because women tend to get negative reactions if we are too confident or forward whereas these are seen as positive attributes in a man, and he would likely to be found lacking if he was not confident or forward enough. I kind of want to try it out next time I apply for a job!

Do we have any academics who can do a study of interview behaviours? Wink

Original poster
Triffiddealer · 03/08/2012 00:31

The salaries are there Joan. That is the world. By saying "I don't deserve that much" we are ranking ourselves as less than others (in this case men).

Not applying for a job will never change anything.

I am talking as one who often thinks - 'oh I don't have the skills to do that' or 'I would never be worth that much'. The fact that less qualified men don't think that or worry about if they are worth it hadn't occurred to be before (which makes me sound a bit dim, I think)

OP posts:
enimmead · 03/08/2012 00:30

This report came out recently.

www.i-l-m.com/downloads/resources/centres/communications-and-marketing/ILM_Ambition_and_Gender_report_0211.pdf

Summarised here

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18127469

Says the same thing about women not applying for jobs they do not feel qualified for whereas men will.

joanofarchitrave · 03/08/2012 00:22

Interesting. Whenever I am looking for jobs, I always look on salary - for an amount that I am comfortable earning/expect to earn. So it resonates with me. I can't even imagine applying for a job earning £50K, I don't feel worth it and I have no idea how other people think they are, though I don't mind them feeling it IYSWIM.

Do we want to change it? Are these salaries 'appropriate'?

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