Actually, we're not really worth it.

Even this, right now, us discussing it - I wonder if men ever discuss reasons for salary difference, or whether they just accept it?

I always thought that "essential" meant essential, too.

Baffling. Why can't people just say what they actually mean?

I never look at salary when applying for jobs. Or try not to, anyway! I think if I was applying for somthing which was 50k or 100k+ I'd be such a gibbering wreck I'd never get through the interview. However, every interview I've had so far has been successful (touch wood!)

Trills I agree that it makes no sense that it would be evolutionary. I think if there's a difference (and it sounds as though there is) it's very much cultural conditioning which causes both the difference itself and reactions to those differences.

"In companies, if salaries were published, I wonder how many women would push for higher ones? Why don't companies publish salaries?"

I suspect you answered your own question there.

I know one of my previous jobs had it written into our contract that we weren't allowed to discuss our salaries with other staff. Unsurprisingly I then found out that a male member of staff was being paid more than me - despite him doing less hours than me and having less responsibilities.

What made it more "interesting" was being told that there was no way I was getting a pay rise, and finding out that he was given a pay rise and less hours after he failed his assessment period as a supervisor and kicked up a fuss at being demoted back to sales assistant.

Funnily enough I don't trust companies that wont discuss (or let you discuss) pay scales.

I apply for a job if I don't meet all the "essential" criteria so long as I meet most.. often works out for me

Salary does put me off, both too low and too high! I tend to aim at only SLIGHTLY higher than I'm on but not way higher

In NHS clinical jobs you don't ask for any salary, it's all set and published. What you do do is decide when to apply for the next step up, I suppose.

A former colleague of dh's has an equal opportunies complaint in against his previous company. And another colleague was told he was no longer welcome as he had disclosed his salary to the woman in question.

Lrd, I am the same with applications. It's making me even less confident, tbh, as even when I match the criteria exactly and know I'd be bloody good at the job, I'm still not getting interviews. So I'm left feeling if I can't get an interview where I know I stand a good chance, what on earth would I be doing applying for something I know I don't meet the criteria for?

Catch-22.

With my sensible head on, it's just a numbers game (and some other stuff like I'm a new immigrant in an itinerant town) but it doesn't do wonders for your self esteem, for sure. And for women who've been on a career break due to mat or whatever, who may already be slightly wary about their capaabilities in returning to a work environment, it compounds the issue to be told at every turn 'women are paid less' etc etc. becomes v self defeating.

The only job I've managed to get is a seasonal entry level pt temp job. I used to run an airport. I'm useful as a warning, I suppose!

Triff, that would be really interesting (publishing salaries).

'love is not enough' should be mandatory reading for teenage girls.

So much of this stuff we don't get told.

Leaving aside evopsych, which I think is rubbish myself, I do think I probably do what they're saying - apply for jobs when I meet 90% of the spec.

I am just quite literal-minded and initially I assumed when they said something was 'essential', they meant it! I feel incredibly cheeky filling in a form when I know I don't meet the spec. I also know that's ridiculous.

For me personally, that does definitely come from years of being told it was extremely rude and un-feminine ever be more ambitious than your record suggested you should be.

Obviously that anecdote only applies to me so far as I know, but it was pretty heavily insisted on at my school and I would like to see that attittude go.

Confidence is important for most jobs - it helps you sell or teach or negotiate. It helps you handle stress and keeps you motivated.

My dc are young, I don't notice little girls being less confident, but the women I know are certainly less confident than the men.

Because I work for the NHS I don't really think about this at all. To earn £50K in my field I don't know what I would have to do - the most senior people in my department, with literally decades of experience and specialist expertise, don't earn that, and they are stressing that they are so highly paid that they will be made redundant because their value isn't recognised, just their cost. To think that I am worth the same as them in work terms is just not true.

I did briefly earn almost £30K in a previous NHS job and I used to lie awake at night worrying that I wasn't worth the money; at times I worked through the night to try and prove I was worth it. I'm not interested in that level of stress, even if self-inflicted.

"Joan - why wouldn't you think you are worth £50k? Don't you think you are worth having somewhere to live? Depending on where you live you could be very very lucky indeed to get a suitable place for £150k (3 x that salary)."

Surely it depends on the job and level of experience what one is worth - I'm pretty good at my job, and houses cost that much in my area, but I'm not yet worth that much, because I don't have the corresponding level of responsibility yet.

Joan - why wouldn't you think you are worth £50k? Don't you think you are worth having somewhere to live? Depending on where you live you could be very very lucky indeed to get a suitable place for £150k (3 x that salary).

I know you aren't thinking about your expenses, but about your "value" - that's the thing, I have heard anecdotally that men often justify their request for a pay rise by saying things like "need another bedroom" or "school fees" - whereas women, knowing the world doesn't revolve around them, will say things like "have done this for 5 years and know the sector backwards" or "have increased revenue by x%" (if they ask at all)

I find all this very disheartening. At work I had a little deputation yesterday from a group of people who asked me to help them with something with our boss, "as you manage her so well". She had sent a project back to them with a thousand comments, which they had hoped was finished and put to bed. I had a look at the comments and honestly, they were good comments; the work hadn't been done to a good enough standard. They were disappointed that I couldn't "manage" the situation into the project being approved; I realised that they don't actually believe in content, in the existence of good or bad work, and they see me getting stuff through this very stringent boss and think I am "managing" her, that all there is to work is manipulating people. Sadly (or happily for me as I am not one of life's manipulators) sometimes the content is what counts. They don't quite understand this.

BTW it's not "sometimes content counts" that disheartens me; but the number of people in the world who think they are entitled to a good career by confidence and manipulation - and who get it.

Interesting thread :) I am actually fairly confident in my abilities and although most of my jobs have come through word of mouth rather than applying, I've always negotiated on salary and got what I thought of as a good deal. In fact, my first job outside of university I deliberately pushed myself to ask for a higher salary as I didn't want to be seen as a pushover. But I still have a nagging suspicion that I'm not as assertive as the men when it comes to asking for money.

I always think that if I could do 50-75% of the job spec I'd apply, closer to 90% then I'd think I was overqualified. You never learn anything by doing a job you can easily do! So I'm quite surprised to find that many women will only apply for a job they can do 90% of.

I guess that I am confident to ask for more because

a) I was always the smartest at school, and was told so by all my teachers. Maybe I wouldn't be quite so confident if I'd only been average or just above average?

b) supportive parents - they always told me I could do anything

c) I work in a technical field, not many women to compare me against, plus many of my friends are men in similar fields so I'm influenced by them.

d) personality - I generally do my own thing without worrying too much about what other people think about me.

I have had that happen acouple of times (where the company I was at offered me more money to stay, despite saying that they couldn't give me a payrise a few months before). I never stayed though - I had already mentally left. Plus I don't think it is good practice to stay personally.

In my yoof I never ever haggled for more money in an interview. I didn't even know it was an option and certainly wouldn't have had the confidence to do so. But then once I refused a job offer because I'd been offered another one and the first company upped the salary offer to make it worth my while.

It was the first time I realised that it does happen, and it made me a bit miffed that I could have been on less money simply because I hadn't asked for it.

like that feeling of panic when you start a new job and you don't know the people or processes and you have to learn everything quickly

I don't like that feeling. But that's probably a combination of nature and nurture - some people are naturally more risk-takey, and some groups of people are encouraged to be risk-takers.

found that women's reluctance was based on an entirely reasonable and accurate view of how they were likely to be treated if they did. Both men and women were more likely to subtly penalize women who asked for more -- the perception was that women who asked for more were 'less nice'

I think thats a "comfort" argument, frankly. My experience is that women who have worked for me have been less likely to take extra responsibility, even when its offered to them on a plate, than men are.

"never apply for a job you can do - apply for one you can't"

That is so true.

Interestingly I was talking to my colleague (male) about this kind of thing a few weeks ago. He is the same grade as me, but older and far more highly qualified (has an MBA, got a first in his degree, has some other qualifications). He is cautious by nature and always applies for jobs he feels he can do with certainty. He recognises that he could be a far higher grade then he is and could be on a 6 figure salary if he pulled his finger out and applied for jobs which required a stretch.

I have always chanced it, thought if I met at least a portion of the job spec I could wing the rest of it. I have enough confidence in my abilities at work to know that I would be capable. This could be a personaility thing as I personally like to move jobs every few years, and like that feeling of panic when you start a new job and you don't know the people or processes and you have to learn everything quickly. I get bored when I get comfortable.

So I think there is a certain male/female conditioning thing, but also think it is personaility dependent. I work with mostly men, some are bullish and some are very cautious like the colleague mentioned.

While it's true that women are less confident and less likely to "big themselves up" , I really don't see why we would need an evolutionary explanation for it, when there is plenty of indication that little girls (and bigger girls, and young women, and older woman) are taught to be polite and nice and not push themselves forward and not boast.

Saying that it's due to evolution makes it much harder to push for change.

And that's not a man bash. I just think women (or me!) tend to be more tough on themselves.

We're harsher on how we look or act or perceived. Men care a bit less

Funny my DH says when he interviews men, they are happy to sit there all arrogantly and proclaim they are "experts" in a field that they aren't. They are happy to lie and shrug and say "well, I don't know that"

When I go for an interview, if I get asked something I don't know, I walk out very embarrassed and teary. It's a massive knock to my confidence.

Hence, I will only ever apply for positions were I tick 90% of the boxes. I don't want to look a fool

Bertie you said "I know I'd be terrified to haggle a salary up in case they thought it was cheeky and decided not to offer me the job!"

And in many cases, you would be right. Studies show that yes, if you negotiate, you are likely to get a better salary and better starting salary will make quite a significant difference over a lifetime.

But this might not work if you are a woman.

Linda C. Babcock, a professor of economics at Carnegie Mellon University and Hannah Riley Bowles, who studies the psychology of organizations at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, "found that women's reluctance was based on an entirely reasonable and accurate view of how they were likely to be treated if they did. Both men and women were more likely to subtly penalize women who asked for more -- the perception was that women who asked for more were 'less nice'."

Lovely. Damned if you do (ask), damned if you don't.

My Dad always told me "never apply for a job you can do - apply for one you can't"