Congratulating women on getting married

apologies not sure where that "actually more about weddings than marriage" came from. Trying to eat lunch and post is clearly taxing my brain.

I see civil partnership doing what it says - a legal, societal agreement to a partnership between two people for whatever [personal] reasons they have to want one.

I'd be in favour of civil partnership - I might even consider it for myself. As Lottapianos and others have said, it's the patriarchal baggage that I most dislike about marriage. Actually, more about weddings than marriage.

Mooncup - agree. Although I'm slightly more impressed with babies now having had a crap pregnancy and a horrible birth experience - I practically demanded congratulations from anyone and everyone!

Agree with Lotta re the differences, and would add no automatic sharing of assets, and a much more straightforward dissolution process. The main legal aim of a civil partnership should be that each partner becomes the other's next of kin, and is entitled to spousal benefits like health insurance etc (obviously, more important in the US than here).

I agree with that, Waspie, and in my younger days I used to find it irritating to have to congratulate people on having babies ('FFS, it just proves they've had sex! Anyone can do that!').

I am a bit more laid back now, though I was annoyed a couple of years ago when I met up with friends for what I thought was a casual picnic and they announced they had recently got engaged, and whipped out the champagne so I could celebrate the happy occasion with them.

Civil partnerships - no expectations of being together forever, no 'til death do us part', no patriarchal baggage (giving away the bride, dowries, diamond rings etc etc), no vows (you can just both show up and sign a bit of paper if you want, with a very brief spoken declaration which is so refreshing in its simplicity), no name changes (unless you really want to), no Mr and Mrs, no husband and wife (both are 'partner'), no expectations either within the couple or within society about the roles of either partner and most definitely no expectation for the relationship to be 'consummated'

What's not to love?

In what way would you want a civil partnership to be different to marriage?

I'm a feminist and I'm not a believer in marriage. I have a child with my partner, and we have an equal relationship in our own nuclear family. The legal stuff is sorted through wills and declarations. I work and earn about the same as my partner so no need to marry to protect my financial interests.

However, if I was a SAHM I would probably want to be married to protect myself. So I would only be getting married to protect myself in case of a relationship breakdown, and this seems so negative.

I don't think I do congratulate people. I've never really thought about it. I don't congratulate people on their birthdays but I am very happy to celebrate with them same for weddings really. I congratulate people on achievements - passing exams, driving tests, qualifications etc. But I don't see getting married as an achievement just as I wouldn't see a birthday as an achievement.

I hadn't realised that, Lotta, and yes it is ridiculous. Definitely an opportunity to reshape the whole system and give people of all sexualities an alternative to marriage.

My understanding is that gay marriage will be introduced in addition to gay CPs. Any couple who wishes to have their CP converted to marriage can apply to do so, but it won't happen automatically. So gay couples will have the option of marriage/CP/neither, hetero couples have only marriage/non-marriage. Hardly fair is it!

Yes - but, given that civil partnerships are about to become gay marriage, does that get us any further? I'd like there to be legal differences between marriage and 'domestic partner' contracts (in France and NY the former has more provisions that the latter, as well as the assumption that marriage is for life, and it's much easier to dissolve domestic partner contracts).

Well I do agree with marriage. But I respect the fact that a lot of people don't. And as for congratulating people well why not. No point in saying oh dear terribly sorry heard you got married how awful for you. It such a terrible institution and so many failures. As the person hopefully did want to get married and is looking forward to a happy life. . Same as if somebody marries somebody dreadful it's best not to say. Even though it might be hard!

Totally agree MooncupGoddess. The Equal Love campaign has submitted a request to the European Court of Human Rights, asking to extend civil marriage to gay couples and civil partnership to hetero couples and they are pretty confident of the ruling going in their favour I completely agree that civil partnership should be available as an alternative to marriage, for everyone.

Good points LRD. In France and New York (and no doubt many other countries) they now have a 'domestic partner' contract, which allows people to formalise their relationship in a legal sense without going through the hoopla/vows/patriarchal associations of marriage. I think this is long overdue here.

'not anyone here, but for example the sort of blokes who convince women they're just too cool and unconventional for stuff like that, then proceed to up and leave when they feel like it'

Very true LRD. I have read loads of threads on here where the OP and her bloke have been together for years, share a home, have children together but he says he's 'just not ready' for marriage Smells like BS to me. Obviously I understand being genuinely anti-marriage but if you have children, you need to speak to a solicitor to ensure you and your partner are protected if you split. I think blokes like this just don't want to be 'tied down' and obviously don't see a relationship and parenthood as that much of a commitment. Horrid.

People do also judge you for getting married, though - there's not a very easy answer. I got an awful lot of 'oh, why are you doing this, it's so establishment, man' or 'you're going to regret it'. People I do not know well at all are perfectly happy to tell me they thought my choice was mad and worrying. A couple of DH's friends chose not to turn up on the day because they (married themselves) didn't care for the way we were doing it.

Bottom line: you cannot avoid judgy people.

The reason I mention this is, I think it's the other side of the same coin. SGB is right that marriage as we know it has its roots in male ownership of women and women as objects. It's also the case (probably for the same reason) that women are on average the lower-earning partners in hetero relationships, and that in hetero couples who have children, women are on average more likely to lose earning power. And the easiest (though not the only) way to protect against this is - marriage. IMO that's a problem for feminists, in that there ought to be a restructuring of society to protect women, rather than marriage itself.

But in our current situation, some of the naysayers to marriage are also doing bad things for women ... not anyone here, but for example the sort of blokes who convince women they're just too cool and unconventional for stuff like that, then proceed to up and leave when they feel like it.

Some people seem to take exception to the fact that I'm not married, have never married or even lived with a partner and never will; they either imply I'm a lesbian-who-won't-come-out or have suffered horrible trauma/my parents had a bitter divorce. None of that's true.
Most of my friends are pretty open-minded, though; a lot of them are different from the normal heteromonogamous model (some gay, some celibate, some polyamorous, etc).
THe roots of marriage are about male ownership of women and it is a matter of inheritance/breeding etc. This is a fact, and any individual's happy marriage is not changed in any way by this fact, but just mentioning it triggers a lot of waa, waa, why are you so bitter?

MooncupGoddess, I've had reactions like 'you don't want to get married?' (from a family member who has a horrendous marriage and has thought many times about divorce ), simple straightforward 'why???' (well, backatcha!) to 'oh'. On the other hand, some people are totally fine with it. I'm not planning to have children either and have had a wide range of reactions to that when people find out, not all of them welcome I promise you. It's amazing how invested lots of people are in the status quo and what is 'expected' and some people get very shirty indeed if you choose a different path. Interesting.

Sorry if I've missed something here Margerykemp, but you seem to be drip-feeding/shifting your stance with every post.

You started with "becoming increasingly anti-marriage" and asked "How do other feminists handle their friends weddings?" When people answered that question you shifted to :

"Woah! Lots of defensiveness. My question is really only directed at people who ARE anti-marriage. ... If you are anti-marriage do you tell your married friends?"
which is a totally different question. Plus you are effectively equating 'feminists' and 'people who ARE anti-marriage'. Really? I must say I took a bit of offence at that.

You were obviously queried about that, and denied you " ... only want to talk to people who agree with me" and returned to your original question, reworded into "I want to know how people with a certain belief system handle a practical issue" . Which people had been answering before you said Woah!

You then completely shift the goalposts with "Ok maybe because in the small sample of people I know who are getting married/ have recently married ... are jumping on the peer pressure band wagon because all their friends are doing it. ... I'm seeing lots of good women marry utter arseholes just because they don't want to be the only singleton in their group."
Now if you'd started with that information, and ask how other MNers would respond to such announcements, you'd may have got a very different set of answers. Or maybe not, as whatever their motives they are adults who are competent to make their own decisions, and everyone is entitled to go to hell in the handcart of their own choosing.

As an aside, I think you read too much into making "the big white dress photo" into their Facebook profile picture. If they're recently married then it's one of their most recent photos, plus it was probably taken by a professional (and should therefore be a 'good' photo) and is flattering. I have very few photographs of myself that I would say I liked, most people are probably the same, you use what good photos you have.

That's interesting Lotta - do you find that some married people react badly to your lack of interest in marriage? This is part of what I said earlier about objecting to the central role marriage plays in our culture - whereby marriage is seen as the default and anyone who doesn't marry is seen as odd/defective.

Sorry, didn't finish my point about my best friend! It was hard seeing her get married to a tosser, but it's her life etc etc. I did show enthusiasm for her wedding because I wanted to be supportive of her and felt it wasn't fair to impose my views on her. Having said that, I couldn't bring myself to write anything about wishing them years and years of happiness on their wedding card - I just wished them both a lovely day instead. She's having their first baby later this month and I have made a huge effort to be supportive and enthusiastic but inside I'm thinking 'WHY are you doing this????'

She is aware of my views on marriage as we have known each other for a long time. I tend to keep my views to myself in general, unless someone asks me directly whether DP and I will be getting married, and then I say no, we're not interested. Have had some interesting reactions to that!

Really interesting thread margery!

I am a feminist and staunchly anti-marriage. Having said that, if DP and I had children, I would marry him (very very quietly) because I would want to ensure that we had the necessary legal protection in the event of things going wrong. We're not planning to have children ever and at the moment, we live together but have totally separate finances so it's not an issue. I would be up for a civil partnership though as this doesn't have the patriarchal baggage and sounds much more equal to me.

Like other posters, I admit to having a sinking feeling when people tell me they have got engaged or are getting married. I usually show some mild interest by saying 'oh good for you' or whatever but I just can't get it up to make a fuss. I'm thinking here of people at work or whatever, people I don't know all that well. My BF got married a few years ago to a total arsehole, and that was really tough. Diamond rings, white dresses, being 'given away' and name-changing make me feel downright sad if I'm honest

And again, FWIW, I think that's why you're finding people aren't answering your question as you expect them to - because whether they agree with you about marriage or not, most of them wouldn't communicate those views in the situation you're describing, which is what you're asking for advice on.

Actually I can see you don't once call them friends, just refer to them as people you know. In which case, do you really care? I think I'd probably reserve any tricky conversations for people I was close to, if I were to voice my views.

It sounds a rather controlling attitude to friendships.

Honestly? I don't normaly like posting f it's not something positive, but I really think you need to examine your attitude to your 'friends'. It really doesn't sound like you respect or like them and if that's the case, what are you doing in their company? But what really strikes me is that you seem to be presuming you have the ability to look into their hearts and minds and know the basis of each relationship and their reasons forgetting married - which imo are often complex and myriad and highly individual. I strongly doubt that you know better for your friends than they do, and so I answer to your question how do you deal with it, you respect your opinions as your own but also your friends' rights to their own opinions and respect their autonomy to live their own lives.

I wonder if your friends are picking up on your negativity, which I think appears to be directed at them rather than their decision to marry, and that's why you're not usually invited?

FWIW I don't think your analogy works. Counselling someone to deny their sexuality is advising them to live their lives according to someone else's values. People on this thread counselling you not to voice your beliefs is advising you on how to deal with relationships with others with different views to you; they are not telling you to eschew your feminist beliefs in your own life. I think someone else used the following word - you seem to want to evangelise - ie you seem to feel you cannot live in a way that is truthful to your feminist beliefs without communicating your views in circumstances which you think will provide such a juxtaposition that your friends will rethink - as opposed to keeping them to yourself, because yor friendshave already clearly made the decision and are not seeking your view on it.

Please remember that there are two views on most issues, bar really heinous crimes, of which i think we can see from the range of opinions on marriage on this thread, marriage is not one, even for some feminists. This is why, no matter how clear-cut your own views are, I think people are advising tact.

I see a more accurate analogy in a situation where a Christian who does not believe in gay marriage seeks to make their views known to a same-sex couple announcing their intention to marry.

Sorry, I know I don't know you or your reasons for your views ether, but that is an honest attempt to answer your question.