Positives and negatives of the Olympics.

messy I've often found that the comments section on the DM website is broadly liberal and their horrible articles about cellulite on someone's thighs will often result in loads of comments about how shit the DM is. The Guardian comments sections is far worse in my experience, loads of sexist, cynical, worly-weary shite.

I think it's good to have a feminine athlete in Victoria Pendleton. I'm not massively into sport, but it is great to see that "femininity" and sport aren't mutually exclusive. I can relate to her a lot more than I can to someone who doesn't show any emotion and is just 100% about sport.

Any sportsperson who is a bit human and not all media-trained out of all recognition is interesting. People will always be interested in that sort of person - that's why we all love Bradley Wiggins at the moment.

That might well be true!

It is amazing to find that people are discussing women everywhere, for what they've done. It's great!

The DM, skewing things?! Don't be silly LRD!

Re. the patriotic thing, I reckon when people unite as a nation they forget about divisions of class and gender. But it's really nice this time that women are also at the forefront being supported by both men and women.

It makes me think that if we had a high-profile British female tennis player then there wouldn't have been such a fuss from the menz over the equal pay at Wimbledon...

That's true.

I would have liked to see the interview transcript though - that article is so heavily skewed it's very hard to make out how she was actually coming across.

I did like the bit where she said that yes, she is emotional and vulnerable but what does it matter as long as her legs are the fastest? She's showing that so-called "girliness" and athletic prowess are not mutually exclusive. Good point IMO.

I didn't see that - so are we concluding that when people are happy and proud of British women, they become feminists for the day?

Excellent!

I also thought the article was a bit but once again I was happily to see the pro-woman, almost feministy type comments below. All the comments criticising her were voted down. What on earth is going on?!

I found that whole article a bit cringey and full of negatives.

It is really awful that she feels worthless if she's 'mediocre' and I know the point of trainers is to push you, but her dad is made out to be quite unpleasant (style of writing, I think). It comes across as if she doesn't have the ambition, it's all her dad pushing and her own sense of shame at being 'mediocre'. Given that's coming rather more clearly from the writing around the quotations than the quotations, I am a bit at that.

Why can't the writer believe she has ambition, why does it have to be dressed up as 'OMG, I didn't really want to but I couldn't disappoint dad'.

That struck me more than the photos, personally.

Sorry for misunderstanding you then. It wasn't quite clear what you meant. I think we'll have to disagree on the gender stereotypes thing - personally I think VP has a massive, huge opportunity here to promote her sport through her achievements alone rather than relying on her perceived sex appeal.

If she does something worthy of scorn, sure. If she conforms to gender stereotypes, not so much.

Why on earth not? I'm sorry, but why not? If a woman (not talking about VP AT ALL of course) does something worthy of scorn, why should she not be criticised simply because of her gender? How is that equality? I'm genuinely puzzled by that.

I really don't want to get into a discussion about whether women should be appearing in their scanties again. Done to death on here.

I don't think there's ever really any need to be scathing of another woman, actually, I think we get enough shit from society without being started on by other women.

I do.

David Beckham's career is over anyway.

Anyway, I apologise for digressing. And just to be clear, I am absolutely not detracting from Vicky's gold medals and achievements. She's an amazing cyclist.

Have you seen the photos of Louis Smith doing gymnastics with no clothes on? There were a couple of male track athletes as well, posing in sporting/Classical positions, as well as Victoria Pendleton and another woman athlete I hadn't heard of.

If we are going to have naked sportspeople, we should in the very least do it like that.

Also, I don't think the decisions of individual women about photoshoots have any bearing on the wider issues we're discussing here.

Well - David Beckham has appeared on posters all over London in his underpants and no one seems to think that detracts from his reputation as a sportsman?

Why should I not be scathing about someone just because she is a woman? And I just SAID she was someone to be admired because of her drive, determination, hard work and talent, rather than tearing into her! And it is different to you going out in high heels and make up because (presumably) you are not in the public eye trying to win gold medals and to be taken seriously as an athlete. What Pendleton does in private is absolutely her own business - she is welcome to be as girly as she likes. She is welcome to wear make up and heels and wear nice clothes, and she is very pretty. But why try and court popularity by trying to make men want to shag you, which is in essence what her pics were about? She can be popular and famous enough through her incredible achievements, surely?

Ariel is there really any need to be so scathing to a fellow woman on what is a positive and light-hearted thread? I thought you were talking about the topic of the article - her relationship with someone who was in her team - rather than the photos.

I can see it from both sides. Victoria Pendleton enjoys doing those photoshoots, she likes "girly" stuff, she likes to look traditionally feminine. She is also a hard, aggressive rider. I don't know if I necessarily agree that women should never show off their bodies or be in traditionally feminine poses if that's what they want. I will be going out tonight in a short skirt and heels and I'd be horrified if my fellow feminists condemned that choice outright. Things are problematic, people are contradictory but I don't think there's any need to start tearing into each other.

On the other hand, yes, I am sick of successful women always taking their clothes off in a way that men don't seem to have to.

Would Jessica Ennis be as popular if she wasn't pretty? Of course women get more kudos than men do for their looks, but she is also super-muscular so it's nice to see someone who doesn't conform to a stereotype being seen as fanciable.

OK, I will explain, though I wouldn't have thought it needed me to. Women athletes want to be treated on an equal footing as men, and have their sporting achievements recognised rather than their perceived attractiveness. And there is Pendleton having photos of herself taken whose purpose is solely to make her into a sex object. No one doubts her incredible achievements on her bike: her drive, her determination, her hard work and talent. So why is it necessary to try and boost her popularity with these photos? In my opinion stuff like that doesn't "empower" women athletes at all - it merely provides fodder for the type of men who decides to rate or not rate a woman athlete based on her "attractiveness" or otherwise. Would you see Kath Grainger doing a photoshoot like that? Would Jess Ennis be as popular amongst men if she wasn't pretty? Photoshoots like Pendleton's do not do women athletes any favours at all. In my opinion.

The women's boxing starts this weekend. You watch the backlash.

Positive - have heard many commentators saying that the women are running/riding/competing "aggressively", always said as a positive. It's so unusual to hear a woman described as a aggressive and for it to be a good thing.

Ariel I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain?

Ennis Yes, I totally agree. All the sports, men's and women's, are given equal coverage (it seems to me). Last night I was in the pub and the women's basketball was on - everyone was watching it, cheering along, commenting on it. Can't see that happening for many women's sports throughout the rest of the year. Hopefully over time, it will become totally normal to watch women's sport and not just men's.

Massive bloody negative of the Games here

How will there ever be equality if women like Pendleton do this sort of shite?

I really like events where the women's competition and the men's are all mixed up together, like tonight in track cycling and swimming (and in athletics too, I guess, but some things there are concurrent not consecutive). It feels more natural like "of course you're a swimming fan, here are some great races, the difference between one and the next might be the stroke used or the length of the race or the sex".

If the two get "equal billing" of this kind, I feel it breaks the loop of th nature: "women's football (for example) is rubbish so no one watches it do it isn't on telly so no-one watches it...and so on and so on."

Instead it is - YAY, more terrific cycling.

I hope that makes sense, it is late'

Right, this is probably a temporary positive (cynic, me?), but you know how usually if you go on the Daily Mail even halfway decent articles have the most horrible, misogynistic comments underneath?

I just googled Karina Bryant - the super heavyweight Judo player who got bronze - and the Dail Mail article, for a miracle, is full of positive comments about her, even some that are feministly demanding why the Mail doesn't focus on more British sportswomen. Good, eh?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183222/London-2012-Olympics-Judo-Karina-Bryant-wins-bronze-Team-GB.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

(Erm, yeah. It's not a miracle: there's still a shot or two other women ... but, well, could be so much worse ...)

Fair enough, I shall try not to cringe